TE: After this happens, they are born again, and cannot sin. That's what the text says, correct? … John says a born again person cannot sin. Period. No qualification.

MM: The context contains conditions, which is – abiding in Jesus. Being born again is not what empowers them to cease sinning. Abiding in Jesus is what empowers them to stop sinning. We cannot divorce the two, that is, 1) rebirth and 2) abiding in Jesus. Both are necessary for them to be like Jesus.

SC 61
"Ye know that He was manifested to take away our sins; and in Him is no sin. Whosoever abideth in Him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen Him, neither known Him." 1 John 3:5, 6. Here is the true test. If we abide in Christ, if the love of God dwells in us, our feelings, our thoughts, our purposes, our actions, will be in harmony with the will of God as expressed in the precepts of His holy law. {SC 61.1}

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TE: This isn't all you've said about it. You've been saying for a long time that a person who is not born again can do nothing but sin. As I stated, this is what I showed was false.

MM: It is not false. Unconverted people cannot experience “good works”. Yes, unbelievers can do good things, but such things do not count, from God’s perspective, as “good works”.

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TE: In order to abide in Jesus, is it necessary to have faith? (that wasn't on the list). How is what you believe any different than saying that a born again person cannot sin unless he chooses to sin?

MM: By faith we abide in Jesus. By faith we do the things on the “list”. A born again believe cannot commit a known sin while abiding in Jesus. By not choosing to abide in Jesus they are choosing to commit a known sin.

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TE: You say "we are sinning if we are not abiding in Jesus." John said that one who is born of God cannot sin. So how can one who is born of God not abide in Jesus? You don't see the contradiction here?

MM: I see no contradiction. Only born again believers can choose not to abide in Jesus. This choice in not an option for people not abiding in Jesus.

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TE: The fact that you personally don't know or understand something does not mean that the thing you don't know or understand is unknowable or not understandable.

MM: Okay. But this principle doesn’t apply to those things we cannot explain. “The science of salvation cannot be explained; but it can be known by experience.”

TE: After this happens, they are born again, and cannot sin. That's what the text says, correct? … John says a born again person cannot sin. Period. No qualification.

MM: The context contains conditions, which is – abiding in Jesus. Being born again is not what empowers them to cease sinning.

No it doesn't. It says, "He cannot sin because he is born of God." It doesn't says, "He cannot sin because He abides in Jesus. You keep saying the text says something it doesn't say. The text does not say "being born again is not what empowers him to cease sinning." It says, "He cannot sin." Why? "Because he is born of God."

Abiding in Jesus is what empowers them to stop sinning.
We cannot divorce the two, that is, 1) rebirth and 2) abiding in Jesus. Both are necessary for them to be like Jesus.

SC 61
"Ye know that He was manifested to take away our sins; and in Him is no sin. Whosoever abideth in Him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen Him, neither known Him." 1 John 3:5, 6. Here is the true test. If we abide in Christ, if the love of God dwells in us, our feelings, our thoughts, our purposes, our actions, will be in harmony with the will of God as expressed in the precepts of His holy law. {SC 61.1}

Now this is in harmony with what John wrote!

Let's get back to my point. John says that one who is born again cannot sin. So how can one who is born again choose not to abide in Jesus, since choosing not to abide in Jesus would lead to sin?

Do you see the problem? You state that a born again person can choose not to abide in Jesus. You also state, "We are sinning if we are not abiding in Jesus." So a born again person who chooses not to abide in Jesus is, as you point out, "sinning." But John says that a born again person cannot sin.
…………………………

TE: This isn't all you've said about it. You've been saying for a long time that a person who is not born again can do nothing but sin. As I stated, this is what I showed was false.

MM: It is not false. Unconverted people cannot experience “good works”. Yes, unbelievers can do good things, but such things do not count, from God’s perspective, as “good works”.

You're saying a different thing here. What you've said in the past is that a person who is not born again can do nothing but sin. But you say that such a person, responding to the prompting of the Holy Spirit to confess his sins is not commiting sin, contradicting yourself.

…………………………..

TE: In order to abide in Jesus, is it necessary to have faith? (that wasn't on the list). How is what you believe any different than saying that a born again person cannot sin unless he chooses to sin?

MM: By faith we abide in Jesus. By faith we do the things on the “list”. A born again believe cannot commit a known sin while abiding in Jesus. By not choosing to abide in Jesus they are choosing to commit a known sin.

I think the way EGW put it is good. It reminds me of another statement she wrote elsewhere:



Notice in the above quote, which you cited, she equates abiding in Christ with the love of God dwelling in us. This is in harmony with John's emphasis. What causes the love of God to dwell in us? "We love Him because He first loved us." It is the love of God, revealed on the cross, which draws us to Him. As Christ is revealed to us, we are motivated to respond to His love. This is why it is the character of God that is so important that we understand. This is why the whole purpose of Christ's earthly ministry was the revelation of God.

…………………………

TE: You say "we are sinning if we are not abiding in Jesus." John said that one who is born of God cannot sin. So how can one who is born of God not abide in Jesus? You don't see the contradiction here?

MM: I see no contradiction. Only born again believers can choose not to abide in Jesus. This choice in not an option for people not abiding in Jesus

The contradiction is that John says that one who is born of God cannot sin. You say that choosing not to abide in Jesus is sinning. So you say that one who is born of God can sin. That's the contradiction..

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TE: The fact that you personally don't know or understand something does not mean that the thing you don't know or understand is unknowable or not understandable.

MM: Okay. But this principle doesn’t apply to those things we cannot explain. “The science of salvation cannot be explained; but it can be known by experience.”

I was making an observation that you use the expression "this is a mystery" often, not to things that "we cannot explain" but to things you cannot explain.

In such case it probably makes no difference anyhow.

I admire your patience Tom, really do.

It's a blessing .... and a curse.

TE: Do you see the problem? You state that a born again person can choose not to abide in Jesus. You also state, "We are sinning if we are not abiding in Jesus." So a born again person who chooses not to abide in Jesus is, as you point out, "sinning." But John says that a born again person cannot sin.

MM: I do not believe born again believers can commit known sins while abiding in Jesus. The reason, as I understand it, that they cannot commit known sins while abiding in Jesus is because they are 1) born again and 2) abiding in Jesus.

I realize you disagree with this observation. You seem to think there is another reason why they cannot commit known sins. Please share with me what you believe about it. And, I would appreciate it if you would simply share what you think without finding fault with what I believe about it. Thank you.

…………………………

TE: You're saying a different thing here. What you've said in the past is that a person who is not born again can do nothing but sin. But you say that such a person, responding to the prompting of the Holy Spirit to confess his sins is not commiting sin, contradicting yourself.

MM: Admitting that our sinful habits are wrong is not a sin. However, whatever we do about it before we are born again is, in one way or another, tainted with sin and selfishness. “For whatsoever is not of faith is sin.” (Rom 14:23)

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TE: Notice in the above quote, which you cited, she equates abiding in Christ with the love of God dwelling in us. This is in harmony with John's emphasis. What causes the love of God to dwell in us? "We love Him because He first loved us." It is the love of God, revealed on the cross, which draws us to Him. As Christ is revealed to us, we are motivated to respond to His love. This is why it is the character of God that is so important that we understand. This is why the whole purpose of Christ's earthly ministry was the revelation of God.

MM: I agree.

……………………………

TE: The contradiction is that John says that one who is born of God cannot sin. You say that choosing not to abide in Jesus is sinning. So you say that one who is born of God can sin. That's the contradiction.

MM: Here’s what I wrote about it:



TE: I was making an observation that you use the expression "this is a mystery" often, not to things that "we cannot explain" but to things you cannot explain.

MM: Okay.

It matters to me what you think about it.

Why?

TE: Do you see the problem? You state that a born again person can choose not to abide in Jesus. You also state, "We are sinning if we are not abiding in Jesus." So a born again person who chooses not to abide in Jesus is, as you point out, "sinning." But John says that a born again person cannot sin.

MM: I do not believe born again believers can commit known sins while abiding in Jesus. The reason, as I understand it, that they cannot commit known sins while abiding in Jesus is because they are 1) born again and 2) abiding in Jesus.

I realize you disagree with this observation. You seem to think there is another reason why they cannot commit known sins. Please share with me what you believe about it. And, I would appreciate it if you would simply share what you think without finding fault with what I believe about it. Thank you.

I disagree with your logic, which isn't sound. I've tried to explain why, but you're not getting it, I'm not sure why. I have made no comment regarding the observation. I've been trying to get you to see the logic first. I was going to make a point if I were successful in getting you to see the logic here, but it doesn't appear that that's going to happen, so I haven't made my point, so you can't can't make any judgements what I think about your observations, because I haven't made any, as we didn't get that far.

…………………………

TE: You're saying a different thing here. What you've said in the past is that a person who is not born again can do nothing but sin. But you say that such a person, responding to the prompting of the Holy Spirit to confess his sins is not commiting sin, contradicting yourself.

MM: Admitting that our sinful habits are wrong is not a sin. However, whatever we do about it before we are born again is, in one way or another, tainted with sin and selfishness. “For whatsoever is not of faith is sin.” (Rom 14:23)

Again, not the point I was addressing, and not relevant to the veracity of what you have said in the past. You have stated, often, that before one is born again one can do nothing but sin. Yet I succeeded in providing an example which you agree with where this is not the case. So what you said before (a person who is born again can do nothing but sin) contradicts what you say now (Admitting that our sinful habits are wrong is not a sin).

…………………………..

TE: Notice in the above quote, which you cited, she equates abiding in Christ with the love of God dwelling in us. This is in harmony with John's emphasis. What causes the love of God to dwell in us? "We love Him because He first loved us." It is the love of God, revealed on the cross, which draws us to Him. As Christ is revealed to us, we are motivated to respond to His love. This is why it is the character of God that is so important that we understand. This is why the whole purpose of Christ's earthly ministry was the revelation of God.

MM: I agree.

……………………………

TE: The contradiction is that John says that one who is born of God cannot sin. You say that choosing not to abide in Jesus is sinning. So you say that one who is born of God can sin. That's the contradiction.

MM: Here’s what I wrote about it:

Quote:
MM: Choosing not to abide in Jesus is not a sin, rather it leads to sinning. We are sinning if we are not abiding in Jesus. We are either all of His and free of sin, or we are none of His and full of sin. We cannot be partially born again. “If any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.” (Romans 8:9) “No man can serve two masters.” (Matthew 6:24) “None of us can occupy a neutral position; our influence will tell for or against. We are active agents for Christ or for the enemy. We either gather with Jesus or scatter abroad.” (4T 16)

Which is what I said. "We are sinning if we are not abiding in Jesus." So, according to you:
a)A born again person can choose not to abide in Jesus.
b)Not abiding in Jesus is sinning.

Which means:
c)A born again person can sin.

But John says:

d)A born again person cannot sin.

This is a contradiction.


TE: I was making an observation that you use the expression "this is a mystery" often, not to things that "we cannot explain" but to things you cannot explain.

MM: Okay.

Because you posted it for a reason, but I don't know what that reason is. It was important to you. I like knowing important things.