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Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. [Re: Mountain Man] #84217
01/18/07 08:47 PM
01/18/07 08:47 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
TE: I disagree with your logic, which isn't sound. I've tried to explain why, but you're not getting it, I'm not sure why.

Quote:
MM says:

a) A born again person can choose not to abide in Jesus.

b) Not abiding in Jesus is sinning.

Which [to TE] means:

c) A born again person can sin.

But John says:

d) A born again person cannot sin.

This is a contradiction.


MM: We already you know what you think of my interpretation and application. So, please explain what you think 1 John 3:9 means. There are 4 parts to it:

1) Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin;
2) for his seed remaineth in him:
3) and he cannot sin,
4) because he is born of God.

………………………

TE: Again, not the point I was addressing, and not relevant to the veracity of what you have said in the past. You have stated, often, that before one is born again one can do nothing but sin. Yet I succeeded in providing an example which you agree with where this is not the case. So what you said before (a person who is born again can do nothing but sin) contradicts what you say now (Admitting that our sinful habits are wrong is not a sin).

MM: Admitting, before we are born again, that our sinful habits are wrong is not sinning, and neither does it qualify as “good works”. Confessions mean nothing until it is forsaken and forgiven. The “devils also believe, and tremble.” (James 2:19)

GC 620, 621
Those professed Christians who come up to that last fearful conflict unprepared will, in their despair, confess their sins in words of burning anguish, while the wicked exult over their distress. These confessions are of the same character as was that of Esau or of Judas. Those who make them, lament the result of transgression, but not its guilt. They feel no true contrition, no abhorrence of evil. They acknowledge their sin, through fear of punishment; but, like Pharaoh of old, they would return to their defiance of Heaven should the judgments be removed. {GC 620.3}

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. [Re: Mountain Man] #84222
01/18/07 09:21 PM
01/18/07 09:21 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
TE: I disagree with your logic, which isn't sound. I've tried to explain why, but you're not getting it, I'm not sure why.

Quote:
MM says:

a) A born again person can choose not to abide in Jesus.

b) Not abiding in Jesus is sinning.

Which [to TE] means:

c) A born again person can sin.

But John says:

d) A born again person cannot sin.

This is a contradiction.


MM: We already you know what you think of my interpretation and application. So, please explain what you think 1 John 3:9 means. There are 4 parts to it:

1) Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin;
2) for his seed remaineth in him:
3) and he cannot sin,
4) because he is born of God.

It appears that you disagree that:
a) A born again person can choose not to abide in Jesus.
and
b) Not abiding in Jesus is sinning
means
c) A born again person can sin.

I'm curious about this, because you wrote, "Which [to TE] means ..." which implies you disagree. This seems like completely straight-forward logic to me! I'd like to resolve this issue, and get to the point I wanted to make assuming we can, and then I'll come back to explain what I think the verse means.


………………………

TE: Again, not the point I was addressing, and not relevant to the veracity of what you have said in the past. You have stated, often, that before one is born again one can do nothing but sin. Yet I succeeded in providing an example which you agree with where this is not the case. So what you said before (a person who is born again can do nothing but sin) contradicts what you say now (Admitting that our sinful habits are wrong is not a sin).

MM: Admitting, before we are born again, that our sinful habits are wrong is not sinning, and neither does it qualify as “good works”. Confessions mean nothing until it is forsaken and forgiven. The “devils also believe, and tremble.” (James 2:19)

Now you're adding a different new thing. I didn't say anything about good works. I didn't say anything about selfishness. What I said was that your idea that a born again person can do nothing but sin is false, and I proved it is false by using your own example of something a person who is not born again can do which is not sin.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. [Re: Tom] #84223
01/18/07 09:28 PM
01/18/07 09:28 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
TE: I'm curious about this, because you wrote, "Which [to TE] means ..." which implies you disagree. This seems like completely straight-forward logic to me! I'd like to resolve this issue, and get to the point I wanted to make assuming we can, and then I'll come back to explain what I think the verse means.

MM: Correct. I disagree. That is, I do not believe 1 John 3:9 means born again believers lose the ability to sin.

TE: Now you're adding a different new thing. I didn't say anything about good works. I didn't say anything about selfishness. What I said was that your idea that a born again person can do nothing but sin is false, and I proved it is false by using your own example of something a person who is not born again can do which is not sin.

MM: An unconverted person can admit that their sinful habits are wrong. I do not see it as sinful or sinless.

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. [Re: Mountain Man] #84226
01/18/07 09:42 PM
01/18/07 09:42 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
TE: I'm curious about this, because you wrote, "Which [to TE] means ..." which implies you disagree. This seems like completely straight-forward logic to me! I'd like to resolve this issue, and get to the point I wanted to make assuming we can, and then I'll come back to explain what I think the verse means.

MM: Correct. I disagree. That is, I do not believe 1 John 3:9 means born again believers lose the ability to sin.

You're not being clear. Here's what I asked if you disagree with.

Quote:

a) A born again person can choose not to abide in Jesus.
and
b) Not abiding in Jesus is sinning
means
c) A born again person can sin.


It looks like you are saying you disagree with something I wasn't asking. Do you disagree with what I am asking? Please bear in mind that I'm not discussing the text here, not discussing what John meant, just the logic present by a), b) and c).

TE: Now you're adding a different new thing. I didn't say anything about good works. I didn't say anything about selfishness. What I said was that your idea that a born again person can do nothing but sin is false, and I proved it is false by using your own example of something a person who is not born again can do which is not sin.

MM: An unconverted person can admit that their sinful habits are wrong. I do not see it as sinful or sinless.

So your statement that a person who is not born again can do nothing but sin is false.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. [Re: Tom] #84228
01/18/07 10:04 PM
01/18/07 10:04 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
TE: It looks like you are saying you disagree with something I wasn't asking. Do you disagree with what I am asking? Please bear in mind that I'm not discussing the text here, not discussing what John meant, just the logic present by a), b) and c).

MM: Okay. Divorced from any biblical context, yes, I agree.

TE: So your statement that a person who is not born again can do nothing but sin is false.

MM: Yes.

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. [Re: Mountain Man] #84229
01/18/07 10:42 PM
01/18/07 10:42 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Here is what the Bible says about “abiding in” Jesus:

Quote:
1 John
15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
15:5 I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast [them] into the fire, and they are burned.
15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
15:8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
15:9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

1 John
2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
2:24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

2 John
1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.


Here is what the SOP says about “abiding in” Jesus:

Quote:
John did not teach that salvation was to be earned by obedience; but that obedience was the fruit of faith and love. "Ye know that He was manifested to take away our sins," he said, "and in Him is no sin. Whosoever abideth in Him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen Him, neither known Him." 1 John 3:5, 6. If we abide in Christ, if the love of God dwells in the heart, our feelings, our thoughts, our actions, will be in harmony with the will of God. The sanctified heart is in harmony with the precepts of God's law. {AA 563.1}

The Holy Spirit seeks to abide in each soul. If He is welcomed as an honored guest, those who receive Him will be made complete in Christ. The good work begun will be finished; the holy thoughts, heavenly affections, and Christlike actions will take the place of impure thoughts, perverse sentiments, and rebellious acts. {CH 561.1}

Every Christian must stand on guard continually, watching every avenue of the soul where Satan might find access. He must pray for divine help and at the same time resolutely resist every inclination to sin. By courage, by faith, by persevering toil, he can conquer. But let him remember that to gain the victory Christ must abide in him and he in Christ. {AH 403.2}

There are only two classes in the world today, and only two classes will be recognized in the judgment--those who violate God's law and those who obey it. Christ gives the test by which to prove our loyalty or disloyalty. "If ye love Me," He says, "keep My commandments. . . . He that hath My commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth Me. And he that loveth Me shall be loved of My Father, and I will love him, and will manifest Myself to him. . . . He that loveth Me not keepeth not My sayings; and the word which ye hear is not Mine, but the Father's which sent Me." "If ye keep My commandments, ye shall abide in My love; even as I have kept My Father's commandments, and abide in His love." John 14:15-24; 15:10. {COL 283.3}

This union with Christ, once formed, must be maintained. Christ said, "Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in Me." This is no casual touch, no off-and-on connection. The branch becomes a part of the living vine. The communication of life, strength, and fruitfulness from the root to the branches is unobstructed and constant. Separated from the vine, the branch cannot live. No more, said Jesus, can you live apart from Me. The life you have received from Me can be preserved only by continual communion. Without Me you cannot overcome one sin, or resist one temptation. {DA 676.1}

"Abide in Me, and I in you." Abiding in Christ means a constant receiving of His Spirit, a life of unreserved surrender to His service. The channel of communication must be open continually between man and his God. As the vine branch constantly draws the sap from the living vine, so are we to cling to Jesus, and receive from Him by faith the strength and perfection of His own character. {DA 676.2}

The root sends its nourishment through the branch to the outermost twig. So Christ communicates the current of spiritual strength to every believer. So long as the soul is united to Christ, there is no danger that it will wither or decay. {DA 676.3}

The life of the vine will be manifest in fragrant fruit on the branches. "He that abideth in Me," said Jesus, "and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without Me ye can do nothing." When we live by faith on the Son of God, the fruits of the Spirit will be seen in our lives; not one will be missing. {DA 676.4}

"My Father is the husbandman. Every branch in Me that beareth not fruit He taketh away." While the graft is outwardly united with the vine, there may be no vital connection. Then there will be no growth or fruitfulness. So there may be an apparent connection with Christ without a real union with Him by faith. A profession of religion places men in the church, but the character and conduct show whether they are in connection with Christ. If they bear no fruit, they are false branches. Their separation from Christ involves a ruin as complete as that represented by the dead branch. "If a man abide not in Me," said Christ, "he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned." {DA 676.5}

"And every branch that beareth fruit, He purgeth [pruneth] it, that it may bring forth more fruit." From the chosen twelve who had followed Jesus, one as a withered branch was about to be taken away; the rest were to pass under the pruning knife of bitter trial. Jesus with solemn tenderness explained the purpose of the husbandman. The pruning will cause pain, but it is the Father who applies the knife. He works with no wanton hand or indifferent heart. There are branches trailing upon the ground; these must be cut loose from the earthly supports to which their tendrils are fastening. They are to reach heavenward, and find their support in God. The excessive foliage that draws away the life current from the fruit must be pruned off. The overgrowth must be cut out, to give room for the healing beams of the Sun of Righteousness. The husbandman prunes away the harmful growth, that the fruit may be richer and more abundant. {DA 676.6}

"Herein is My Father glorified," said Jesus, "that ye bear much fruit." God desires to manifest through you the holiness, the benevolence, the compassion, of His own character. Yet the Saviour does not bid the disciples labor to bear fruit. He tells them to abide in Him. "If ye abide in Me," He says, "and My words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you." It is through the word that Christ abides in His followers. This is the same vital union that is represented by eating His flesh and drinking His blood. The words of Christ are spirit and life. Receiving them, you receive the life of the Vine. You live "by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God." Matt. 4:4. The life of Christ in you produces the same fruits as in Him. Living in Christ, adhering to Christ, supported by Christ, drawing nourishment from Christ, you bear fruit after the similitude of Christ. {DA 677.1}

A mere profession of godliness is worthless. It is he that abideth in Christ that is a Christian. For "every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure." In every clime, in every nation, our youth should cooperate with God. The only way a person can be pure is to become like-minded with God. How can we know God?--By studying His Word. . . . {SD 297.2}

It is through faith in Jesus Christ that the truth is accepted in the heart and the human agent is purified and cleansed. Jesus was "wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed." Is it possible to be healed, while knowingly committing sin?--No; it is genuine faith that says, I know that I have committed sin, but that Jesus has pardoned my sin; and hereafter I will resist temptation in and through His might. "Every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure." He has an abiding principle in the soul, that enables him to overcome temptation. {SD 297.3}

"Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not." God has power to keep the soul who is in Christ, when that soul is under temptation. "Whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him." That is, every one who is a true believer is sanctified through the truth, in life and character. "Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth {not professeth to do} righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous." "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; . . . because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil." Now mark where the distinction is made: "Whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither is he that loveth not his brother." "My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue, but in deed and in truth." {SD 297.4}


Both the Bible and the SOP teach that born again believers do not and cannot commit a known sin while abiding in Jesus. It does not mean they lose the ability to stop abiding in Jesus and resume sinning.

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. [Re: Mountain Man] #84231
01/18/07 11:01 PM
01/18/07 11:01 PM
V
vastergotland  Offline
Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: västergötland
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: västergötland
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Thomas, I already know what I believe about it. I wasn't sure why you posted them.
In such case it probably makes no difference anyhow.
It matters to me what you think about it.
Why?
Because you posted it for a reason, but I don't know what that reason is. It was important to you. I like knowing important things.
I read it in a document that had to do with another thread here at MSDAOL and thought that it would fit in this thread. It is true that part of the reason I acctually did post it is becoures you do not agree with it, but I do not wish to get into a discussion about it. The quote is plain enough as it stands and forum history tells me such a discussion is about as usefull as emptying a lake with a tablespoon anyways.

Thomas


Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. [Re: Mountain Man] #84235
01/18/07 11:17 PM
01/18/07 11:17 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
TE: It looks like you are saying you disagree with something I wasn't asking. Do you disagree with what I am asking? Please bear in mind that I'm not discussing the text here, not discussing what John meant, just the logic present by a), b) and c).

MM: Okay. Divorced from any biblical context, yes, I agree.

Ok, let's consider it now with the Biblical context. Here we go!

a) A born again person can choose not to abide in Jesus.
and
b) Not abiding in Jesus is sinning
means
c) A born again person can sin.

Since you agree with the logic, that means that c) is true if a) and b) are true. Do you agree with a) and b)? Or do you see either one of them as not being Biblical?




TE: So your statement that a person who is not born again can do nothing but sin is false.

MM: Yes.

Can you think of any other things a person who is not born again can do which is not sin, other than confess sins that the Holy Spirit reveals? That is, are there any other things a person might respond to which the Holy Spirit is working on them with?


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. [Re: Mountain Man] #84244
01/19/07 12:34 AM
01/19/07 12:34 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Thomas, here is the first quote you posted (the bold and underlined part is how you posted it):

Quote:
Our ministers need a transformation of character. They should feel that if their works are not wrought in God, if they are left to their own imperfect efforts, they are of all men the most miserable. Christ will be with every minister who, although he may not have attained to perfection of character, is seeking most earnestly to become Christlike. Such a minister will pray. He will weep between the porch and the altar, crying in soul anguish for the Lord's presence to be with him; else he cannot stand before the people, with all heaven looking upon him, and the angel's pen taking note of his words, his deportment, and his spirit. {TM 143.3}

Attaining to perfection of character is a lifelong work. It involves becoming more and more mature in the fruit of the Spirit. The work does not involve gradually outgrowing our sinful habits and practices. I’m not accusing you of believing this.

We are born again complete in Christ. God implants within us the mind of the new man, which comes complete with all the righteous fruit and attributes of God’s character.

Like Jesus, we begin perfect (complete) and we become perfect (mature). In fact, eternity isn’t long enough to exhaust our potential to become more like Jesus. This “work of progression will not cease, but will continue throughout eternity.” (HP 186)

Quote:
“All righteous attributes of character dwell in God as a perfect, harmonious whole, and every one who receives Christ as a personal Saviour is privileged to possess these attributes.” (COL 330)

“When we live by faith on the Son of God, the fruits of the Spirit will be seen in our lives; not one will be missing.” (DA 676)

“When a soul is truly converted, old habits and natural evil besetments are done away in Christ Jesus and all things become new.” (TMK 247)

“There is not a stain in the character because God is enthroned in the heart and Christ does not war against Christ.” (1 S&T 246)

“Transformation of heart means an entire change of the entire man.” (TDG 48)

“Even the most perfect Christian may increase continually in the knowledge and love of God.” (ML 249)

“‘The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.’ Through obedience comes sanctification of body, soul, and spirit. This sanctification is a progressive work, and an advance from one stage of perfection to another.” (ML 250)

“The Holy Spirit seeks to abide in each soul. If He is welcomed as an honored guest, those who receive Him will be made complete in Christ. The good work begun will be finished; the holy thoughts, heavenly affections, and Christlike actions will take the place of impure thoughts, perverse sentiments, and rebellious acts.” {CH 561.1}

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. [Re: Mountain Man] #84246
01/19/07 01:02 AM
01/19/07 01:02 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Quote:
a) A born again person can choose not to abide in Jesus.
and
b) Not abiding in Jesus is sinning
means
c) A born again person can sin.

Since you agree with the logic, that means that c) is true if a) and b) are true. Do you agree with a) and b)? Or do you see either one of them as not being Biblical?

I would like to reword the formula:

a) Born again believers can choose not to abide in Jesus

b) Born again believers sin while they are not abiding in Jesus

c) Born again believers can sin

A + B = C

I agree with this formula. I believe it is biblical.

……………………..

Quote:
Can you think of any other things a person who is not born again can do which is not sin, other than confess sins that the Holy Spirit reveals? That is, are there any other things a person might respond to which the Holy Spirit is working on them with?

Not unless we include exceptions to the rule, like the natives who showed kindness to missionaries. Of course this does not apply to those poor slaves who will not go to heaven.

Quote:
DA 638
Those whom Christ commends in the judgment may have known little of theology, but they have cherished His principles. Through the influence of the divine Spirit they have been a blessing to those about them. Even among the heathen are those who have cherished the spirit of kindness; before the words of life had fallen upon their ears, they have befriended the missionaries, even ministering to them at the peril of their own lives. Among the heathen are those who worship God ignorantly, those to whom the light is never brought by human instrumentality, yet they will not perish. Though ignorant of the written law of God, they have heard His voice speaking to them in nature, and have done the

EW 276
I saw that the slave master will have to answer for the soul of his slave whom he has kept in ignorance; and the sins of the slave will be visited upon the master. God cannot take to heaven the slave who has been kept in ignorance and degradation, knowing nothing of God or the Bible, fearing nothing but his master's lash, and holding a lower position than the brutes. But He does the best thing for him that a compassionate God can do. He permits him to be as if he had not been, while the master must endure the seven last plagues and then come up in the second resurrection and suffer the second, most awful death. Then the justice of God will be satisfied. {EW 276.1}

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