TE: Meaning what?

MM: The indwelling of the Holy Spirit is “the miracle which God performs in us … that allows [empowers] us to overcome sin” and to imitate the example of Jesus, to mature in the fruits of the Spirit.

TE: Right thinking would be what allows one to make correct decisions. All actions, whether expressed in thought, word, or deed, flow from correct decisions.

MM: Neither right thinking nor right decision making is what empowers us to think right, to speak right, or to act right. The Holy Spirit is the source of power - not right thinking or right decision making.

TE: So there was no risk, right? "No doubt" = "no risk." This would contradict the idea that there was risk, right? That is, "no doubt" = no risk, which contradicts risk.

MM: The “risk” was real. Jesus could have failed. But He didn’t. The Father knew Jesus would succeed. There was never a moment of doubt in His mind.

TE: Where does it say that an active agent for Christ cannot commit a known sin?

MM: Where does it say they can?

TE: All throughout Scripture. Moses is one example. Dozens upon dozens more could be given.

MM: Moses was not actively abiding in Jesus when he sinned. No one can commit a known sin while actively abiding in Jesus.

You just arguing in a circle. Also you changed your response from "active agent" to "actively abiding in Jesus."

………………………….

MM: No one abiding in Jesus can commit a known sin, not any more than Jesus could have committed a known while abiding in the Father. Again, this doesn’t men they are incapable of committing a known sin. What it does mean, though, is that they must first neglect to choose to abide in Jesus, and then they will be able to resume sinning.

TE: This isn't saying anything useful. You're just saying that before one can commit a known sin, one must choose to stop choosing not to commit a known sin.

MM: No. There is a huge difference between what I posted and your response to it. You replaced “they must first neglect to choose to abide in Jesus” with “one must choose to stop choosing not to commit a known sin.” No one can resist sinning by focusing on not sinning. We can only do it by focusing on abiding in Jesus

So the important thing is focussing on abiding in Jesus? A person focussing on abiding in Jesus cannot sin, correct? So before a person can commit a known sin, he much choose to stop focussing on abiding in Jesus.

…………………..

TE: Good! So if "cannot sin" does not mean "is unable to commit a sin," what does it mean? (this is in 1 John 1:9)

MM: I believe the context makes it clear that born again believers who are abiding in Jesus do not and cannot commit a known sin by virtue of the fact they are abiding in Jesus, partaking of the divine nature.

Doesn't answer the question. What does "cannot sin" mean? It can't mean "unable to commit a sin," so it must mean something else. What does it mean? (just the two word phrase "cannot sin").

………………………..

TE: So what do we conclude? We conclude that when John says a born again believer cannot sin, he doesn't mean that the believe is unable to commit a sin, but means something else, which has been my point all along.

MM: Again, I agree. What it does mean, though, is that they must first neglect to choose to abide in Jesus, and then they will be able to resume sinning.

TE: The verse says that one who is born of God cannot sin. I have pointed out that this does not mean "is unable to commit a sin" (which is what you were saying before). It must mean something else. You have proposed something which is impossible. There is no way that:

Quote:
“Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.”

Can mean:

“They must first neglect to choose to abide in Jesus, and then they will be able to resume sinning.”

MM: “Which is what you were saying before.” No. I believe they do not and cannot commit a known sin while abiding in Jesus. Being “unable” to sin is totally different.

How is "cannot" different than "unable"? "Can" means "to be able". "Cannot" means "to not be able"

It is obvious that John did not mean people lose the ability to sin after they are born again or while abiding in Jesus. Therefore, what I posted about it is true. BTW, you have yet to explain what you think it means.

It's been a long time now, because of your hiatus, but I think I wanted to know what "cannot sin" means before answering.

…………………….

TE: The question was not who is saved but if a person who is not born again can do anything other than sin.

MM: The Bible says “all our righteousnesses are filthy rags”. It is even more true of all our unrighteousnesses, right? What is your point? Are you arguing that unconverted people can do things that are not filthy rags in the sight of God?

No, my point is what I said. I gave examples. You agree that an unbeliever responding to the Holy Spirit who reveals sin to him is not sinning by so responding, so that's sufficient to show that your statement that an unbeliever can do nothing but sin is false.

………………..

TE: When Ghandi was recognizing and teaching truth which comes from God, was he sinning?

MM: He deliberately rejected Jesus as his personal Saviour. Therefore, he was sinning. He taught people to look within themselves for the power to be good. His influence leads people to believe they can be good without accepting Jesus as their personal Saviour. Which is Satan’s argument.

TE: Say an unconverted person is married, and is tempted to commit adultery. The Holy Spirit works with him, convicting him not to pursue an illicit relationship. Even though he is strongly tempted to do pursue the wrong relationship, he responds to the Holy Spirit, and refuses the illicit relationship. Is this sin?

MM: Just because he did not commit physical adultery it does not mean he did not sin. His motive for not doing it is tainted with sin. It doesn’t matter that he was initially influenced by the Holy Spirit.

Why would this not matter? The Holy Spirit is striving with the person, convincing him not to sin. Satan is tempting him to sin. He chooses to respond to the Holy Spirit. How can this be committing sin? Sin is transgression of the law. The person is tempted to transgress. He chooses not to transgress. That's not sin.

He chose not to commit physical adultery based on sinful motives and reasons, which, in turn, makes his behavior sinful, even though it did not involve adultery. That’s the whole premise behind Paul’s argument: “For whatsoever is not of faith is sin.”

……………….

MM: Not every Christian is a converted Christian. What passes for good works is, in reality, nothing less than self-righteous acts of self-serving benevolence. It is worthless, counterfeit gold. "The dead are often made to pass for the living; for those who are working out what they term salvation after their own ideas, have not God working in them to will and to do of His good pleasure."

TE: I don't know what this is in reference to. I doubt anyone disputes this. Why are you mentioning it?

MM: You seem to be insisting that unconverted people can be good without Jesus. But in reality not even “half baked” Christians can be good. It is even more true of unconverted people.

I think your idea that a person who is not born again can do nothing but sin is wrong, very wrong. I'm just arguing against this idea.

A short answer as to what I think the text means. I think John is saying that a person who loves God will take care of his fellow. How can one love God whom he has not seen if he does not love his neighbor, whom he has seen? If a person is of Christ, he will take care of those in need. This seems to be John's overriding concern throughout the epistle.

In the passage in question, John says that one who is born of God cannot sin. I understand this to mean that the characteristic of a born-again person is that he will take care of fellow. If we love God, we will keep His commandment, and His commandment is that we love one another.

This seems to be in harmony with John's teaching throughout his epistle.

I'll make a comment on 'cannot sin'. It refers to a man not intentionally doing wrong. The man does not know right and wrong perfectly - none of us do - but he maintains his integrity in doing what he understands to be right. On the one hand, like Job, he shuns evil, and on the other, also like Job, he fulfills his duty to his neighbour, to the stranger, the widow and the orphan.

TE: . . . you changed your response from "active agent" to "actively abiding in Jesus."

MM: I see no difference.

TE: So the important thing is focussing on abiding in Jesus? A person focussing on abiding in Jesus cannot sin, correct? So before a person can commit a known sin, he much choose to stop focussing on abiding in Jesus.

MM: Abiding in Jesus requires focus. It’s akin to “keeping your eyes on Jesus”. It is abiding in Jesus that makes it possible for born again believers to resist sin, self, and Satan., and to mature in the fruits of Spirit, to imitate the example of Jesus.

TE: What does "cannot sin" mean? It can't mean "unable to commit a sin," so it must mean something else. What does it mean? (just the two word phrase "cannot sin").

MM: Why do you insist on divorcing it from the context? The words “cannot sin” mean “cannot sin”. But it is conditional.

TE: How is "cannot" different than "unable"? "Can" means "to be able". "Cannot" means "to not be able"

MM: Good point. Actually, I prefer the word “incapable”. “Cannot sin” does not mean “incapable” of sinning.

TE: You agree that an unbeliever responding to the Holy Spirit who reveals sin to him is not sinning by so responding, so that's sufficient to show that your statement that an unbeliever can do nothing but sin is false.

MM: I disagree. Admitting that certain things are sinful is neither sinning nor not sinning. It doesn’t proves anything to me. You seem to be suggesting that “all our righteousnesses are filthy rags” doesn’t mean “all our righteousnesses are filthy”.

…………………..

MM: In the following exchange you overlooked Gandhi’s rejection of Jesus and his satanic argument. Do you still believe his life and teachings are counted as righteousness in the eyes of God?


TE: Say an unconverted person is married, and is tempted to commit adultery. The Holy Spirit works with him, convicting him not to pursue an illicit relationship. Even though he is strongly tempted to do pursue the wrong relationship, he responds to the Holy Spirit, and refuses the illicit relationship. Is this sin?

MM: Just because he did not commit physical adultery it does not mean he did not sin. His motive for not doing it is tainted with sin. It doesn’t matter that he was initially influenced by the Holy Spirit. He chose not to commit physical adultery based on sinful motives and reasons, which, in turn, makes his behavior sinful, even though it did not involve adultery. That’s the whole premise behind Paul’s argument: “For whatsoever is not of faith is sin.”

TE: Why would this not matter? The Holy Spirit is striving with the person, convincing him not to sin. Satan is tempting him to sin. He chooses to respond to the Holy Spirit. How can this be committing sin? Sin is transgression of the law. The person is tempted to transgress. He chooses not to transgress. That's not sin.

MM: The Holy Spirit was not only influencing him not to commit physical adultery, He was also influencing him not to commit adultery in his heart and mind. The motives and reasons why he didn’t commit physical adultery are sinful. Again, that’s the whole premise behind Paul’s argument: “For whatsoever is not of faith is sin.”

TE: In the passage in question, John says that one who is born of God cannot sin. I understand this to mean that the characteristic of a born-again person is that he will take care of fellow. If we love God, we will keep His commandment, and His commandment is that we love one another.

MM: Sounds good to me. Thank you.

Mark, thanx for sharing. What do you think the following passages mean? John seems to be comparing born again believers to Jesus. Peter seems to agree. Do you agree with this observation?

1 John
3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

1 Peter
4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of [his] time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.

1.Regarding Moses, he was an active agent for Christ for 40 years. He didn't stop being so because he made a mistake.

2.Regarding focusing, or whatever, it still comes down to the same thing. If one is not sinning, before one can sin one must choose to quit not sinning and start sinning. That's basically what you're saying. It's true, but not very helpful.

So what is helpful? What's helpful is to recognize what our problem is. Our problem is not one of sinful behavior (that's a symptom) but one of not knowing and trusting God, and of being damaged by the results of this. We need to be healed, to become closer to God, so see things as He does, to love and trust Him. This is done by beholding God in Jesus Christ.

3."Incapable" means "not able," so it's no improvement.

4.The condition of "cannot sin" is "born of God."



This is the only place where John speaks of what the condition of "cannot sin" is. To say "cannot sin" means "cannot sin" is, obviously, not at all helpful. Please try defining "cannot sin" is some way which is not simply repeating the same two words. What does "cannot sin" mean?

5.You stated previously that a person who is not born again can do nothing but sin. You also stated that such a person is not sinning when responding to the Holy Spirit's conviction of a sin. You may disagree that this is a contradiction, but it doesn't matter; it is. A = ~A is a contradiction.

6.Your conclusion about the premise of Paul's argument is off base. Paul is not speaking at all of what you are suggesting. Take a look at the context.

What of the ones mentioned here:



Do these do nothing but sin?

Either someone is not sinning at all, or doing nothing but sinning. This seems to be how you see things. Is that right?

Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:


Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

1. Moses was not actively abiding in Jesus when He took his eyes off Jesus and sinned. Being an active agent of Jesus means dying daily to self, moment by moment. We stop being an active agent the instant we take our eyes off Jesus. Repentance, of course, restores the relationship we severed.

2. Amen! The focus is Jesus, not starting or stopping sinning. The difference is not mere semantics. To be born again and to abide in Jesus means everything.

3. Okay, then, let me spell it out. “Cannot sin” does not mean born again believers lose the ability or freedom to sin. Even after the great controversy is ended, throughout eternity, we will possess the ability and freedom to sin. The good news is we will never exercise our freedom and ability to sin.

4. Since born again believers do not lose the ability or freedom to sin, rebirth, therefore, is not the solitary condition that makes it possible for them not to sin. Born again believers are always free to sin. Thus, being born again is not the reason why they “cannot sin”. Yes, rebirth is necessary; otherwise, they would be unable to take advantage of whatever it is that empowers them to cease sinning and to mature in the fruits of Spirit, which, by the way, includes loving God and man.

5. I never said a person who admits, under the influence of the Holy Spirit, that certain behaviors are sinful is not sinning. At least that's not what I meant. Such admissions are neither sinful nor sinless.

6. Paul argued that whatever is done through self, apart from a saving relationship with Jesus, is sin. In other words, it is, in one way or another, tainted with sinful motives. If it does not honor and glorify God it is “filthy rags” – no matter how good it looks to us. “For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men.” (Rom 14:18)

7. The “heathen” Sister White wrote about in DA 638 and the “Gentiles” Paul wrote about in Romans 2:13-15 are examples of the Holy Spirit taking matters into His own hands. Where there is no one preaching the gospel, the Holy Spirit will preach it Himself. Such people are born again. They are partaking of the divine nature, which is why and how they are able to behave like Jesus. Thus, their unique situation does not prove unconverted people can be like Jesus without abiding in Him.

8. Being born again and abiding in Jesus is everything. We are either all of His and free of sin, or we are none of His and full of sin. "No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other." Paul makes this point crystal clear:

Romans
8:7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
8:10 And if Christ [be] in you, the body [is] dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness.
8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Thank you, John. Can I assume that you agree "righteousness by faith" and being righteous "even as he is righteous" mean the same thing? Namely, that it means born again believers, who are actively and aggressively abiding in Jesus, will grow in grace and mature in the fruits of Spirit in the same way Jesus did? that the origin of their righteousness is the same as was Jesus' righteousness?