1. Moses was not actively abiding in Jesus when He took his eyes off Jesus and sinned. Being an active agent of Jesus means dying daily to self, moment by moment. We stop being an active agent the instant we take our eyes off Jesus. Repentance, of course, restores the relationship we severed.

This is just a tautology. You're simply saying that a person can't continue not sinning unless he chooses to sin. Moses was as active an agent for Christ as there's ever been. He didn't go through any steps of not focusing on Jesus, or stopping to abide in Him. He lost his temper. He wasn't perfect. Things like that happen. According to the SOP, his repentance was immediate and deep, showing that he was walking (abiding, if you prefer) in Christ.

2. Amen! The focus is Jesus, not starting or stopping sinning. The difference is not mere semantics. To be born again and to abide in Jesus means everything.

If the focus is Jesus, why not talk about Him?

3. Okay, then, let me spell it out. “Cannot sin” does not mean born again believers lose the ability or freedom to sin. Even after the great controversy is ended, throughout eternity, we will possess the ability and freedom to sin. The good news is we will never exercise our freedom and ability to sin.

Then using this definition, John said that one who is born of God will not excercise his freedom and ability to sin. This is true as a general statement, as a characteristic of one who is born again. But it's not a fixed law, saying that no one who is born again never sins. And John doesn't say anything whatsoever about abiding in Jesus being a condition. The only condition John gives is being born again.

4. Since born again believers do not lose the ability or freedom to sin, rebirth, therefore, is not the solitary condition that makes it possible for them not to sin.

This sentence doesn't make sense. I'll explain why. Let A be "born again believers do not lose the ability or freedom to sin." Let B be "Rebirth is not the solitary condition that makes it possible to not sin." You are saying that A implies B. Your proof rests upon the following point "they do not lose the ability or freedom to sin." This implies that there is some condition which allows one to not sin, which has the property that it leads one lost the ability or freedom to sin.

One of the challenges of communicating with you is that you frequently make these logically faulty assertions, and even when they are pointed out to you, you do not acknowledge them, either because you cannot understand the logical error, or you do see it, but choose not to acknowledge it.

Born again believers are always free to sin. Thus, being born again is not the reason why they “cannot sin”.

You could apply this "logic" (or, more accurately, lack of logic) to any condition, for example, abiding in Jesus. "Born again believers who abide in Jesus are always free to sin. Thus, being born again and abiding in Jesus is not the reason why they “cannot sin”.

Yes, rebirth is necessary; otherwise, they would be unable to take advantage of whatever it is that empowers them to cease sinning and to mature in the fruits of Spirit, which, by the way, includes loving God and man.

5. I never said a person who admits, under the influence of the Holy Spirit, that certain behaviors are sinful is not sinning. At least that's not what I meant. Such admissions are neither sinful nor sinless.

You did say so, which is another challenging thing. It's like pulling teeth to get you to admit to any point, and when you finally do, you take it back.

6. Paul argued that whatever is done through self, apart from a saving relationship with Jesus, is sin. In other words, it is, in one way or another, tainted with sinful motives. If it does not honor and glorify God it is “filthy rags” – no matter how good it looks to us. “For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men.” (Rom 14:18)

This doesn't have any context. That is, I don't know why you're making this point.

7. The “heathen” Sister White wrote about in DA 638 and the “Gentiles” Paul wrote about in Romans 2:13-15 are examples of the Holy Spirit taking matters into His own hands.

As opposed to when someone else takes things into the Holy Spirit's hands?

Where there is no one preaching the gospel, the Holy Spirit will preach it Himself.

It's always the Holy Spirit who preaches the Gospel.

Such people are born again. They are partaking of the divine nature, which is why and how they are able to behave like Jesus. Thus, their unique situation does not prove unconverted people can be like Jesus without abiding in Him.

Another challenge is that you often change the topic. It is never been suggested that unconverted people can be like Jesus without abiding in Him. This isn't what we were talking about.

8. Being born again and abiding in Jesus is everything. We are either all of His and free of sin, or we are none of His and full of sin. "No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other."

Also not the topic. You should know from our previous conversations thoughout the years that I agree that faith leads to victory over sin. There's no need to argue that point. It's only your particular theory that I have problems with.

TE: You're simply saying that a person can't continue not sinning unless he chooses to sin.

MM: I have been trying to say the opposite. I have been stressing that “’a person can't continue not sinning” if they take their eyes off Jesus, if they stop abiding in Jesus.

TE: [Moses] didn't go through any steps of not focusing on Jesus, or stopping to abide in Him. He lost his temper. He wasn't perfect. Things like that happen. According to the SOP, his repentance was immediate and deep, showing that he was walking (abiding, if you prefer) in Christ.

MM: If Moses had kept his eyes on Jesus he would not have sinned. He didn’t sin because he was faulty or imperfect. He sinned because he took his eyes off Jesus. He was not abiding in Jesus when he sinned.



TE: . . . John said that one who is born of God will not excercise his freedom and ability to sin. This is true as a general statement, as a characteristic of one who is born again. But it's not a fixed law, saying that no one who is born again never sins. And John doesn't say anything whatsoever about abiding in Jesus being a condition. The only condition John gives is being born again.

MM: I disagree. John did not say a born again believer “will not exercise his freedom and ability to sin”. He said “whosoever abideth in him sinneth not.” Only born again believers can abide in Jesus. Thus, only born again believers who abide in Jesus are empowered not to sin.

TE: Your proof rests upon the following point "they do not lose the ability or freedom to sin." This implies that there is some condition which allows one to not sin, which has the property that it leads one lost the ability or freedom to sin.

MM: I disagree. Neither being born again nor abiding in Jesus causes people to lose the ability or freedom to sin.

TE: You could apply this "logic" (or, more accurately, lack of logic) to any condition, for example, abiding in Jesus. "Born again believers who abide in Jesus are always free to sin. Thus, being born again and abiding in Jesus is not the reason why they “cannot sin”.

MM: I disagree. Being born again and abiding in Jesus is precisely what empowers people with the ability to not sin and to mature in the fruits of Spirit.

Yes, the origin and the nature of their righteousness is the same as is Jesus' righteousness.

It is the nature of the righteousness that is misunderstood, and hence there is sin and condemnation.

1.MM, you have a non-falsifiable theory, in the way you have defined things. There's no point in discussing a non-falsifiable theory. I should have just said this a long time ago.

2.Here's the quote from John regarding "cannot sin"



You're free to disagree, but disagreeing won't change the fact that the "cannot sin" is not qualified by anything other than "because he is born of God."

3.TE: Your proof rests upon the following point "they do not lose the ability or freedom to sin." This implies that there is some condition which allows one to not sin, which has the property that it leads one lost the ability or freedom to sin.

MM: I disagree. Neither being born again nor abiding in Jesus causes people to lose the ability or freedom to sin.

You missed the point. Here's what you wrote:



Can you not see that this doesn't make sense? As you correctly point out, neither being born again nor abiding in Jesus causes people to lose their ability or freedom to sin. Given that this is that case, you cannot reason that being born again is not the solitary condition that makes it possible for them not to sin, because born again believers do not lost the ability or freedom to sin. One could just as easily make the following statement:



This argument is just as valid as the one you made (valid, not true; neither argument is true).

Do you not understand this?

JB: Yes, the origin and the nature of their righteousness is the same as is Jesus' righteousness.

MM: Amen!

JB: It is the nature of the righteousness that is misunderstood, and hence there is sin and condemnation.

MM: How does misunderstanding it lead to sin and condemnation?

TE: You're free to disagree, but disagreeing won't change the fact that the "cannot sin" is not qualified by anything other than "because he is born of God."

MM: I am not comfortable with divorcing verse 9 from its immediate context, especially from verse 6. Also, I disagree with the idea that “right thinking” is the origin and source of power that enables born again believers to not sin. Right thinking is necessary, but I do not believe it is the origin and source of power.

TE: As you correctly point out, neither being born again nor abiding in Jesus causes people to lose their ability or freedom to sin.

MM: I agree.

TE: Given that this is that case, you cannot reason that being born again is not the solitary condition that makes it possible for them not to sin, because born again believers do not lost the ability or freedom to sin.

MM: I’m talking about the origin and source of power that enables born again believer to not sin. Being born again is not enough. It’s only part of the equation. They must also abide in Jesus in the same way He abode in the Father, which includes everything. Being born again and abiding in Jesus is the origin and source of power that enables born again believers to use their faculties of mind and body to not sin and to mature in the fruits of the Spirit.

TE: One could just as easily make the following statement: Since born again believers who abide in Jesus do not lose the ability or freedom to sin, rebirth plus abiding in Jesus, therefore, is not the solitary condition that makes it possible for them not to sin. This argument is just as valid as the one you made (valid, not true; neither argument is true)

MM: I agree with you that - “rebirth plus abiding in Jesus, therefore, is not the solitary condition that makes it possible for them not to sin” - is not true. If born again believers continually abide in Jesus, in the same way Jesus abode in the Father, they, like Jesus, do not and cannot commit a known sin. In fact, they are not truly free to sin until they are free from sin. Apart from abiding in Jesus, all we can do is sin.

The following quotes make it clear that abiding in Jesus, like Jesus abode in the Father, is the origin and source of power that enables born again believers to not sin and to mature in the fruits of the Spirit:

MH 180
Christ came to make us "partakers of the divine nature," and His life declares that humanity, combined with divinity, does not commit sin. {MH 180.5}

COL 314
Satan had claimed that it was impossible for man to obey God's commandments; and in our own strength it is true that we cannot obey them. But Christ came in the form of humanity, and by His perfect obedience He proved that humanity and divinity combined can obey every one of God's precepts. {COL 314.4}

FW 71
Christ took humanity to stand here in our world, to show that Satan had lied. He took humanity upon Himself to demonstrate that with divinity and humanity combined, man could keep the law of Jehovah. Separate humanity from divinity, and you can try to work out your own righteousness from now till Christ comes, and it will be nothing but a failure. {FW 71.1}

TE: You're free to disagree, but disagreeing won't change the fact that the "cannot sin" is not qualified by anything other than "because he is born of God."

MM: I am not comfortable with divorcing verse 9 from its immediate context, especially from verse 6. Also, I disagree with the idea that “right thinking” is the origin and source of power that enables born again believers to not sin. Right thinking is necessary, but I do not believe it is the origin and source of power.

The origin and source of everything is God. But all of our decisions are made on the basis of thought. If we can't think correctly, we can't make right decisions. That impacts what we say and do, the fabric of our character. We must learn to perceive things the way Jesus does, and to think about things the way that He does.

The very expression "born again" or "conversion" has in mind the idea that before we used to think about (or perceive) things one way, and now we perceive and think about them another way.

TE: As you correctly point out, neither being born again nor abiding in Jesus causes people to lose their ability or freedom to sin.

MM: I agree.

TE: Given that this is that case, you cannot reason that being born again is not the solitary condition that makes it possible for them not to sin, because born again believers do not lost the ability or freedom to sin.

MM: I’m talking about the origin and source of power that enables born again believer to not sin. Being born again is not enough. It’s only part of the equation. They must also abide in Jesus in the same way He abode in the Father, which includes everything. Being born again and abiding in Jesus is the origin and source of power that enables born again believers to use their faculties of mind and body to not sin and to mature in the fruits of the Spirit.

TE: One could just as easily make the following statement: Since born again believers who abide in Jesus do not lose the ability or freedom to sin, rebirth plus abiding in Jesus, therefore, is not the solitary condition that makes it possible for them not to sin. This argument is just as valid as the one you made (valid, not true; neither argument is true)

MM: I agree with you that - “rebirth plus abiding in Jesus, therefore, is not the solitary condition that makes it possible for them not to sin” - is not true. If born again believers continually abide in Jesus, in the same way Jesus abode in the Father, they, like Jesus, do not and cannot commit a known sin. In fact, they are not truly free to sin until they are free from sin. Apart from abiding in Jesus, all we can do is sin.

Are you really not understanding what I'm saying? It sounds like you aren't. You're not talking about what I pointed out. Your logic was faulty. I explained why. You're not even addressing the argument I made. All I can think about suggesting is to re-read the argument, and see if you can understand the points I made, and if so you can address that and we could discuss it. (However, I think if you were capable of doing this, you would have recognized right off that your argument didn't make sense to start with, so I'm probably being stupid to even bring this up).

The following quotes make it clear that abiding in Jesus, like Jesus abode in the Father, is the origin and source of power that enables born again believers to not sin and to mature in the fruits of the Spirit:

MH 180
Christ came to make us "partakers of the divine nature," and His life declares that humanity, combined with divinity, does not commit sin. {MH 180.5}

COL 314
Satan had claimed that it was impossible for man to obey God's commandments; and in our own strength it is true that we cannot obey them. But Christ came in the form of humanity, and by His perfect obedience He proved that humanity and divinity combined can obey every one of God's precepts. {COL 314.4}

FW 71
Christ took humanity to stand here in our world, to show that Satan had lied. He took humanity upon Himself to demonstrate that with divinity and humanity combined, man could keep the law of Jehovah. Separate humanity from divinity, and you can try to work out your own righteousness from now till Christ comes, and it will be nothing but a failure. {FW 71.1}

TE: The origin and source of everything is God.

MM: Amen! In light of this discussion, I believe abiding in Jesus is what empowers born again believers to not sin and to mature in the fruits of Spirit.

TE: But all of our decisions are made on the basis of thought. If we can't think correctly, we can't make right decisions.

MM: Hopefully we can agree that “right thinking” is not what empowers born again believers to not sin and to mature in the fruits of Spirit.

TE: Are you really not understanding what I'm saying? It sounds like you aren't.


MM: Okay, let’s try this again:

1. As you correctly point out, neither being born again nor abiding in Jesus causes people to lose their ability or freedom to sin.

MM: I agree.

2. Given that this is that case, you cannot reason that being born again is not the solitary condition that makes it possible for them not to sin, because born again believers do not lost the ability or freedom to sin.

MM: It requires rebirth and abiding in Jesus to not sin. Thus, rebirth alone is not enough. It takes both. I’m not sure what you’re getting at, though. What does retaining the ability and freedom to sin have to do with it?

3. Since born again believers who abide in Jesus do not lose the ability or freedom to sin, rebirth plus abiding in Jesus, therefore, is not the solitary condition that makes it possible for them not to sin.

MM: Why not? Being born again and abiding in Jesus includes everything. What else is needed to empower born again believers to not sin and to mature in the fruits of the Spirit?

John, what is the "nature" of God's righteousness? And, how do people hold it amiss? How do they hold it aright?