TE: The origin and source of everything is God.

MM: Amen! In light of this discussion, I believe abiding in Jesus is what empowers born again believers to not sin and to mature in the fruits of Spirit.

TE: But all of our decisions are made on the basis of thought. If we can't think correctly, we can't make right decisions.

MM: Hopefully we can agree that “right thinking” is not what empowers born again believers to not sin and to mature in the fruits of Spirit.

As I said, God is the origin and source of everything. Therefore, of course, God empowers born again believers to think correctly, just as He empowers every created thing to do whatever it does.

The way that we do right is by thinking right. Our brain controls our actions, and our words. To do right, we must make right decisions, which comes about by thinking right thoughts. God empowers us to do right by teaching us to think right. This is why we are enjoined to do things like meditate upon the life of Christ an hour a day, especially upon the latter scenes; because by beholding we become changed.

TE: Are you really not understanding what I'm saying? It sounds like you aren't.

(snip)

You haven't understood the argument. I'm too tired to repeat it right now, but it was clearly presented. For now I can ask you to re-read it, and please pay attention to the logical points I was making. You're focusing too much on the content and not enough upon the logic. An argument can be true, but not logical. For example, the sky is blue, therefore Friday is the day before Saturday. It's true that Friday comes before Saturday, so the conclusion is true, but the argument is not valid.

Please take a look at the logical problem of your statement that I pointed out. If you still don't see what I was pointing out, I'll repeat, if you'd like, tomorrow.

I can't speak John's language fluently like John, but these are interesting questions, so I'll jump in.

The nature of God's righteousness is His goodness; His mercy, compassion, graciousness, and love. False righteousness is self-righteousness, which insists upon seeing things from man's perspective, as opposed to God's. People hold righteousness aright when they accept God's perspective of it, instead of insisting upon their own.

An example of this concept is brought out here:



"Eye for eye" is an example of holding the righteousness of God amiss. Loving your enemies, turning the other cheek, etc. are examples of holding it aright.

TE: The way that we do right is by thinking right. Our brain controls our actions, and our words. To do right, we must make right decisions, which comes about by thinking right thoughts. God empowers us to do right by teaching us to think right. This is why we are enjoined to do things like meditate upon the life of Christ an hour a day, especially upon the latter scenes; because by beholding we become changed.

MM: Tom, I totally disagree with this idea. Right thinking is not what empowers born again believers to think right, speak right, or do right. The Holy Spirit, residing within them, is what empowers them to not only know what is right but to “will and to do” what is right. “For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure.” I do not believe God simply points out the truth so they can think right and then turns them lose to “go and sin no more”. That’s what it sounds like you’re saying. Please correct me if I’ve misunderstood you. Thank you.


TE: Please take a look at the logical problem of your statement that I pointed out. If you still don't see what I was pointing out, I'll repeat, if you'd like, tomorrow.

MM: “I’m not sure what you’re getting at, though. What does retaining the ability and freedom to sin have to do with it?” Perhaps it would help if you reworded your argument?

TE: "Eye for eye" is an example of holding the righteousness of God amiss. Loving your enemies, turning the other cheek, etc. are examples of holding it aright.

MM: Why, then, if one cancels the other, did Jesus command both in the OT?

Exodus
21:22 If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart [from her], and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges [determine].
21:23 And if [any] mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,
21:24 Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,
21:25 Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.

Leviticus
24:15 And thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel, saying, Whosoever curseth his God shall bear his sin.
24:16 And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, [and] all the congregation shall certainly stone him: as well the stranger, as he that is born in the land, when he blasphemeth the name [of the LORD], shall be put to death.
24:17 And he that killeth any man shall surely be put to death.
24:18 And he that killeth a beast shall make it good; beast for beast.
24:19 And if a man cause a blemish in his neighbour; as he hath done, so shall it be done to him;
24:20 Breach for breach, eye for eye, tooth for tooth: as he hath caused a blemish in a man, so shall it be done to him [again].
24:21 And he that killeth a beast, he shall restore it: and he that killeth a man, he shall be put to death.

Deuteronomy
19:16 If a false witness rise up against any man to testify against him [that which is] wrong;
19:17 Then both the men, between whom the controversy [is], shall stand before the LORD, before the priests and the judges, which shall be in those days;
19:18 And the judges shall make diligent inquisition: and, behold, [if] the witness [be] a false witness, [and] hath testified falsely against his brother;
19:19 Then shall ye do unto him, as he had thought to have done unto his brother: so shalt thou put the evil away from among you.
19:20 And those which remain shall hear, and fear, and shall henceforth commit no more any such evil among you.
19:21 And thine eye shall not pity; [but] life [shall go] for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.

JB: Which nature of righteousness do you aspire?

MM: Real righteousness. The kind that blesses man and glorifies God.

Matthew
5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

Revelation
19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

TE: The way that we do right is by thinking right. Our brain controls our actions, and our words. To do right, we must make right decisions, which comes about by thinking right thoughts. God empowers us to do right by teaching us to think right. This is why we are enjoined to do things like meditate upon the life of Christ an hour a day, especially upon the latter scenes; because by beholding we become changed.

MM: Tom, I totally disagree with this idea. Right thinking is not what empowers born again believers to think right, speak right, or do right. The Holy Spirit, residing within them, is what empowers them to not only know what is right but to “will and to do” what is right. “For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure.” I do not believe God simply points out the truth so they can think right and then turns them lose to “go and sin no more”. That’s what it sounds like you’re saying. Please correct me if I’ve misunderstood you. Thank you.

Right thinking is not what empowers born again believers to think right. You really think it's necessary to make this point?

Let's try it this way.

1.The way that we do right is by thinking right.
2.Our brain controls our actions, and our words.
3.To do right, we must make right decisions, which comes about by thinking right thoughts.
4.God empowers us to do right by teaching us to think right.
5.This is why we are enjoined to do things like meditate upon the life of Christ an hour a day, especially upon the latter scenes; because by beholding we become changed.

You say you "totally disagree" with this idea. Which of these points do you disagree with, and why? (In case you didn't notice, I just restated what I said before, but numbered the sentence to make identification easy).

You are saying the following:
Suppose the following is true:
1.Born again believers do not lose the ability or freedom to sin.

It follows that:
2.Rebirth is not the only thing that makes it possible for them not to sin.

The problem is with your preliminary statement, 1. You say that since born again believers do not lose the ability or freedom to sin that 2. follows. However, this same logic could be used for any idea postulated as that which makes it possible for them not to sin.

Say X is what makes it possible for born again believers not to sin. Then I could make the following argument, based on your logic:

1.Believers with characterist X do not lost the ability or freedom to sin.
2.There X is not the only thing that makes it possible for them not to sin.

You've constructed an argument which can never be valid. That's because the last part of your premise "do not lost the ability or freedom to sin" is always false. A valid argument has to have a true premise which implies a true conclusion. Your argument has a false premise, from which not valid argument can ensue.

The whole problem is with the phrase "do not lose the ability or freedom to sin". Since this never happens, you cannot make any inferences from this. Your "therefore" does not follow, and cannot follow. No "therefore" can.

Here's an analogy:

Since Americans do not lose the ability or freedom to get ill, aspirin, therefore, is not the only condition which enables them to get healthy.

Your argument is like this one. This argument is invalid, because Americans never lose the freedom or ability to get ill.

Do you see the problem?

TE: "Eye for eye" is an example of holding the righteousness of God amiss. Loving your enemies, turning the other cheek, etc. are examples of holding it aright.

MM: Why, then, if one cancels the other, did Jesus command both in the OT?

For the same reason He commanded this: