Why indeed. Good question, Daryl. Was it just a show? Or did Jesus really try to lead Judas to repent?



So Judas could have repented. In that case, the prophecy could have been fulfilled in some other way. God has many ways to fulfill prophecy. For example:



Regarding Peter, Jesus knew Peter's heart. He knew he would deny him for that reason. Jesus prayed for Peter, and when Peter looked at Him, he read only pity and compassion, which broke his heart and led to repent. What a wonderful Savior!

MM, any conditional prophesies I cite you would define as "promises," so this discussion is pointless, isn't it?

TE: MM, any conditional prophesies I cite you would define as "promises," so this discussion is pointless, isn't it?

MM: No. You're not studying with just me, you're studying with all of the members on MSDAOL. For sake of discussion, please share your opinion as to whether or not the following prophecies will be fulfilled exactly as foretold. In other words, is there any part of it that might not be fulfilled in the way the SDA church interprets it?

Revelation
13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
13:13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by [the means of] those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

IMO, the identity of the lamblike beast, the beast and the image of the beast would be very much conditional.
The identity of the mark of the beast is likely conditional.

Thomas

Thomas, does your opinion reflect what the SDA church teaches about it? Or, does the SDA church hold a different view of it? If so, what is it?

It seems to me that there are three kinds of prophecies:
1) Prophecies in which God determines that certain things will happen – these prophecies don’t involve the human will and they will be fulfilled. A classical example are the prophecies related to the plan of salvation.
2) Prophecies in which God predicts that certain things will happen – they involve the human will, but they will be fulfilled. Their purpose is to show God’s foreknowledge. God is revealing what will happen, so that, when it happens, people may believe. Judas (John 13:19) is a classical example.
3) Prophecies in which God predicts certain things that may happen – they involve the human will, and may be fulfilled or not, depending on the human response. Jonah is a classical example. So are the prophecies predicting a golden age for Israel.

Please note that in the second case the prophecy doesn’t determine that things will happen in a certain way – it just reveals that things will happen in a certain way. The future is not determined, just predicted.


What I’m trying to say is that, if the “if” is expressed and not implied, it is no longer a prophecy, but a promise or warning which will be fulfilled. Let’s take for instance Revelation 2:5: “Remember then from what you have fallen, repent and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent”. If the church doesn’t repent, God will remove its lampstand from its place. Is there any way this isn't fulfilled? No. Therefore, this is not a conditional prophecy, but a warning. Take Jer. 29:13: “You will seek me and find me, when you seek me with all your heart.” Is there any way this isn't fulfilled? No. Every time you seek God with all your heart you will find Him. Therefore, this is not a conditional prophecy, but a promise.
Now take a conditional prophecy. “Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown”. Is there any way this isn't fulfilled? Sure! In fact, it wasn’t. Take for instance the prophecy of Ezek. 40-48, about the new temple and its sacrifices. The same principle applies here.
So, what I see is that a promise or warning of God will always be fulfilled, while a conditional prophecy may or may not be fulfilled, depending on the human response.

The prophetic interpretation tends to reflect the age one lives in. It would be interesting to know who people identified the lamblike beast with 300 years ago. We know that people were reading revelation back then. And we know that people couldnt have identified it as US back then (for the simpel fact that there was no such nation at that time). Was US the best fit for the lamblike beast at the time of the early SDA, consiering what they thought and knew? Likely so. Is it still so based on what we now know and considering how the world has changed since then? Good question, one that I do not have an answere to at this time.

Thomas, if the "beast" symbolizes Catholic Europe between 538-1798, then the lamb/dragon beast cannot symbolize a nation before 1798, right? It also seems reasonable to suggest the "image beast" rises to power sometime after 1844.

TE: MM, any conditional prophesies I cite you would define as "promises," so this discussion is pointless, isn't it?

MM: No. You're not studying with just me, you're studying with all of the members on MSDAOL. For sake of discussion, please share your opinion as to whether or not the following prophecies will be fulfilled exactly as foretold. In other words, is there any part of it that might not be fulfilled in the way the SDA church interprets it?

You made the point that there aren't any prophecies in Revelation which aren't conditional. I pointed out some which clearly are. You say these aren't "prophecies" but "promises". There's no point in continuing a discussion where when you are shown to be wrong, you just redefine things to agree with what you thought before, rather than admit to the point being made. This is exactly what you've done in the past. I don't see the point in continuing a discussion along these lines.

Regarding your question of Revelation, I believe the traditional Adventist interpretations of prophecy. I'm not the one who has Calvinistic leanings in my prophetic understanding. Our traditional prophetic Adventist understanding is Armenian, not Calvinistic.

In regards to Judas, is it possible that Judas could have not betrayed Christ?



This is an artificial distinction. There's all sorts of ways "if" can be expressed. For example, in English, "maybe," "whether," "when," "whenever," "given," "suppose," are just a few that immediately come to mind. Many more examples can be given.

In the case of Jonah's prophecy, there was no "if" expressed. That would make it, under your suggestion, a prophecy. Yet it didn't happen.

Regarding the examples I gave, I don't see what you're saying. The prophecy, or promise, or whatever you want to call it "You will find me when you seek for me with all your heart" was given to Israel, and wasn't fulfilled, because they didn't seek God. It's exactly the same thing that happened in Jonah.

The principle of prophecy is laid out by Jeremiah. It's very simple:



This applies to individuals or groups of individuals. Prophecies are not arbitrary pronouncements upon God, about things which He arbitrarily determines to do against or for people who act for or against Him. They are the result of our choosing to live according to His principles or against them.

The people of Israel were arguing that since God has prophesied against them, it didn't make any difference what they did. The prophecy had been made, revealing the future, so that was that. God, through Jeremiah, explained that His prophecies are conditional. When one, whether nation or individual, abides by His principles, He blesses them. When one acts contrary to the principles of God, one suffers the consequences.

God, being infinitely intelligent, can reveal precisely what the consequences of acting for or contrary to His principles will be. Whether the things He says come to pass, depends upon whether God's warnings are heeded.

God is not willing that any should perish. The purpose of prophecy is to warn of the what the results of acting contrary to His principles with be, with the aim of leading the rebellious one to repentance. God's purpose in disclosing truth, whether by way of prediction or not, is salvation.