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Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how.
[Re: Tom]
#84814
02/04/07 04:14 AM
02/04/07 04:14 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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The nature of our righteousness is revealed in the way we make or want make wrongs right. Are we sorry for the transgressor or for ourselves? Do we become the accuser or mediator? If we condemn and wish for “justice” (retribution), the nature of our righteousness is amiss. It is not the nature of God’s righteousness. It is the righteousness which brings death. Nice point, John. It reminds me of the following, form the Desire of Ages: . There can be no more conclusive evidence that we possess the spirit of Satan than the disposition to hurt and destroy those who do not appreciate our work, or who act contrary to our ideas. (DA 487)
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how.
[Re: Tom]
#84840
02/04/07 06:22 PM
02/04/07 06:22 PM
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SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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TE: Right thinking is not what empowers born again believers to think right. You really think it's necessary to make this point? MM: Here’s what I wrote: Right thinking is not what empowers born again believers to think right, speak right, or do right. The Holy Spirit, residing within them, is what empowers them to not only know what is right but to “will and to do” what is right. “For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure.” I do not believe God simply points out the truth so they can think right and then turns them lose to “go and sin no more”. MM: So, again, knowing what is right is not what empowers born again believers to have holy thoughts, feelings, words, and actions. TE: Let's try it this way: 1.The way that we do right is by thinking right. MM: I disagree. The “way” that we are able to “do” right is by cooperating with the indwelling Holy Spirit. Right thinking is not the source of righteousness. 2.Our brain controls our actions, and our words. MM: In the realm of righteousness our brain, by itself, is powerless to produce holy thoughts, words, and beahvior. It is by cooperating with the indwelling Holy Spirit that we are able to use our faculties of mind and body to resist sinning and to mature in the fruits of the Spirit. 3.To do right, we must make right decisions, which comes about by thinking right thoughts. MM: I disagree. See my response to 1 and 2 above. 4.God empowers us to do right by teaching us to think right. MM: I disagree. See above. 5.This is why we are enjoined to do things like meditate upon the life of Christ an hour a day, especially upon the latter scenes; because by beholding we become changed. MM: These things, in and of themselves, do not empower us to resist sinning and to mature in the fruits of the Spirit. The reason they work is because the Holy Spirit makes it efficacious.
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Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how.
[Re: Tom]
#84842
02/04/07 06:50 PM
02/04/07 06:50 PM
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SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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TE: You've constructed an argument which can never be valid. That's because the last part of your premise "do not lost the ability or freedom to sin" is always false. . . The whole problem is with the phrase "do not lose the ability or freedom to sin". Since this never happens, you cannot make any inferences from this.
MM: Tom, I wrote “born again believers do not lose the ability or freedom to sin” in response to the idea that rebirth is the reason why they “cannot sin”.
Before people are born again and begin abiding in Jesus “cannot sin” is not an option. People are not truly free to sin until they are free from sin. They are sin-slaves until they experience the miracle of rebirth and abide in Jesus.
“Cannot sin” only applies to born again believers abiding in Jesus. Rebirth, by itself, is not enough. Both are necessary. In order to enjoy the “cannot sin” experience, people must be born again and abide in Jesus.
TE: That's because the last part of your premise "do not lost the ability or freedom to sin" is always false.
MM: I disagree. People retain the ability and freedom to sin throughout eternity. Though they will never use it, they, nevertheless, will never lose it.
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Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how.
[Re: Mountain Man]
#84843
02/04/07 06:58 PM
02/04/07 06:58 PM
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SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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TE: "Eye for eye" is an example of holding the righteousness of God amiss. Loving your enemies, turning the other cheek, etc. are examples of holding it aright.
MM: Why, then, if one cancels the other, did Jesus command both in the OT?
TE: For the same reason He commanded this [Deut. 24:1-4 quoted]:
MM: How does the law governing divorce and remarriage explain why the laws governing retribution (“eye for eye”) are examples of holding the righteousness of God amiss?
Since it was Jesus Himself who created and commanded the “eye for eye” principle, how can you say it is an example of holding the righteousness of God amiss?
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Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how.
[Re: Mountain Man]
#84847
02/04/07 09:43 PM
02/04/07 09:43 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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John already answered this, by the way.
Why did Christ give the command in Deut. 24:1-4?
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how.
[Re: Tom]
#84849
02/04/07 10:06 PM
02/04/07 10:06 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Responding to post #84840. 1.Of course right thinking cannot be that which enables right thinking. Right thinking is not what empowers born again believers to think right ... How can this make sense? 2.I think you're being excessively nit-picky, just looking at things to pick at rather than trying to understand the overall point being made, which is from Christ who said, "As a man thinketh in his heart, so is He." But just to mention one of the points you disagree with: 3.To do right, we must make right decisions, which comes about by thinking right thoughts. Please explain to me how we can do right while making wrong decisions and thinking incorrectly. The server is down right now, but I suggest doing a search on "right thinking." You might find some interesting things out. In general, the weakness, as I see it, of your opposition to the importance of right thinking is the implication that we can do right in some way which doesn't involve thinking.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how.
[Re: Tom]
#84852
02/04/07 10:19 PM
02/04/07 10:19 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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You're still not dealing with the logic of the argument. Perhaps you'd like to consider the analogy that I gave and deal with that. I've pointed out that you are preoccupied with the content rather than considering the logic. The analogy may help because, since it is not an argument you presented yourself, but just a made up one, you should feel no pressure to defend it, which may leave you free to concentrate on the logic. Here's the analogy. Since Americans do not lose the ability or freedom to get ill, aspirin, therefore, is not the only condition which enables them to get healthy. Do you see the problem with this argument? (that is, with the logic). If so, what is it? If you can answer this question, you should be able to apply this answer to your own argument, of which this is an analogy.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how.
[Re: Mountain Man]
#84868
02/05/07 04:00 AM
02/05/07 04:00 AM
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SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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MM: So, again, knowing what is right is not what empowers born again believers to have holy thoughts, feelings, words, and actions. TE: Let's try it this way: The way that we do right is by thinking right. MM: I disagree. The “way” that we are able to “do” right is by cooperating with the indwelling Holy Spirit. Right thinking is not the source of righteousness. TE: Of course right thinking cannot be that which enables right thinking. “Right thinking is not what empowers born again believers to think right ...” How can this make sense? MM: I do not believe God points out the truth so people can think right and then turns them lose to “go and sin no more”. Knowing what is right is not what empowers born again believers to have holy thoughts, feelings, words, and actions. Right thinking is not the source of holy thoughts. TE: Please explain to me how we can do right while making wrong decisions and thinking incorrectly. MM: I do not believe it is possible. "Right thinking" (understanding what is right) is necessary, but it is not what empowers people to have holy thoughts (thinking right thoughts). TE: In general, the weakness, as I see it, of your opposition to the importance of right thinking is the implication that we can do right in some way which doesn't involve thinking. MM: Here are my comments on this thread regarding right thinking: “Paul wrote that knowing what is right and being willing to do it is not enough. We do not naturally possess the physical or spiritual power to do it.” (84263)
“The way I see it, right thinking is not the miracle that empowers us to live in accordance with right thinking.” (84626)
“Right thinking is necessary, but I do not believe it is the origin and source of power.” (84683) MM: None of my comments can be construed to mean I am implying “we can do right in some way which doesn't involve thinking.”
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Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how.
[Re: Mountain Man]
#84869
02/05/07 04:11 AM
02/05/07 04:11 AM
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SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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PS - I do not see how your analogy reflects the insights I've been posting. I see no corollary connection.
1. Rebirth and abiding in Jesus empowers born again believers to not sin and to mature in the fruits of the Spirit.
2. Rebirth and abiding in Jesus, however, does not cause them to lose the ability or freedom to sin.
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Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how.
[Re: Mountain Man]
#84875
02/05/07 08:53 AM
02/05/07 08:53 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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MM: So, again, knowing what is right is not what empowers born again believers to have holy thoughts, feelings, words, and actions.
TE: Let's try it this way: The way that we do right is by thinking right.
MM: I disagree. The “way” that we are able to “do” right is by cooperating with the indwelling Holy Spirit.
When we cooperate with the Holy Spirit, what is it that He does? Doesn't He enable us to think right? How can we do right without thinking right?
TE: Of course right thinking cannot be that which enables right thinking. “Right thinking is not what empowers born again believers to think right ...” How can this make sense?
MM: I do not believe God points out the truth so people can think right and then turns them lose to “go and sin no more”.
Right thinking does not come about merely as a result of God pointing out the truth. Why do you suggest this?
Knowing what is right is not what empowers born again believers to have holy thoughts, feelings, words, and actions. Right thinking is not the source of holy thoughts.
This is irrelevant to my point.
TE: Please explain to me how we can do right while making wrong decisions and thinking incorrectly.
MM: I do not believe it is possible. "Right thinking" (understanding what is right) is necessary, but it is not what empowers people to have holy thoughts (thinking right thoughts).
Right thinking is not what empowers people to have right thoughts. Again you're pointing this out. I don't know why. Of course right thinking doesn't enable right thinking. Why would it? Why do you feel this point needs to be made even once, let alone repeatedly?
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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