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Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how.
[Re: Mountain Man]
#84768
02/03/07 05:29 AM
02/03/07 05:29 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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TE: The origin and source of everything is God.
MM: Amen! In light of this discussion, I believe abiding in Jesus is what empowers born again believers to not sin and to mature in the fruits of Spirit.
TE: But all of our decisions are made on the basis of thought. If we can't think correctly, we can't make right decisions.
MM: Hopefully we can agree that “right thinking” is not what empowers born again believers to not sin and to mature in the fruits of Spirit.
As I said, God is the origin and source of everything. Therefore, of course, God empowers born again believers to think correctly, just as He empowers every created thing to do whatever it does.
The way that we do right is by thinking right. Our brain controls our actions, and our words. To do right, we must make right decisions, which comes about by thinking right thoughts. God empowers us to do right by teaching us to think right. This is why we are enjoined to do things like meditate upon the life of Christ an hour a day, especially upon the latter scenes; because by beholding we become changed.
TE: Are you really not understanding what I'm saying? It sounds like you aren't.
(snip)
You haven't understood the argument. I'm too tired to repeat it right now, but it was clearly presented. For now I can ask you to re-read it, and please pay attention to the logical points I was making. You're focusing too much on the content and not enough upon the logic. An argument can be true, but not logical. For example, the sky is blue, therefore Friday is the day before Saturday. It's true that Friday comes before Saturday, so the conclusion is true, but the argument is not valid.
Please take a look at the logical problem of your statement that I pointed out. If you still don't see what I was pointing out, I'll repeat, if you'd like, tomorrow.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how.
[Re: Mountain Man]
#84769
02/03/07 05:36 AM
02/03/07 05:36 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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John, what is the "nature" of God's righteousness? And, how do people hold it amiss? How do they hold it aright? I can't speak John's language fluently like John, but these are interesting questions, so I'll jump in. The nature of God's righteousness is His goodness; His mercy, compassion, graciousness, and love. False righteousness is self-righteousness, which insists upon seeing things from man's perspective, as opposed to God's. People hold righteousness aright when they accept God's perspective of it, instead of insisting upon their own. An example of this concept is brought out here: 38 "You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.' F23 39 But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. 40 If anyone wants to sue you and take away your tunic, let him have your cloak also. 41 And whoever compels you to go one mile, go with him two. 42 Give to him who asks you, and from him who wants to borrow from you do not turn away.
43 "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so? 48 Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect. "Eye for eye" is an example of holding the righteousness of God amiss. Loving your enemies, turning the other cheek, etc. are examples of holding it aright.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how.
[Re: Mountain Man]
#84792
02/03/07 04:18 PM
02/03/07 04:18 PM
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SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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TE: The way that we do right is by thinking right. Our brain controls our actions, and our words. To do right, we must make right decisions, which comes about by thinking right thoughts. God empowers us to do right by teaching us to think right. This is why we are enjoined to do things like meditate upon the life of Christ an hour a day, especially upon the latter scenes; because by beholding we become changed. MM: Tom, I totally disagree with this idea. Right thinking is not what empowers born again believers to think right, speak right, or do right. The Holy Spirit, residing within them, is what empowers them to not only know what is right but to “will and to do” what is right. “For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure.” I do not believe God simply points out the truth so they can think right and then turns them lose to “go and sin no more”. That’s what it sounds like you’re saying. Please correct me if I’ve misunderstood you. Thank you. MM: Okay, let’s try this again:
1. As you correctly point out, neither being born again nor abiding in Jesus causes people to lose their ability or freedom to sin.
MM: I agree.
2. Given that this is that case, you cannot reason that being born again is not the solitary condition that makes it possible for them not to sin, because born again believers do not lost the ability or freedom to sin.
MM: It requires rebirth and abiding in Jesus to not sin. Thus, rebirth alone is not enough. It takes both. I’m not sure what you’re getting at, though. What does retaining the ability and freedom to sin have to do with it?
3. Since born again believers who abide in Jesus do not lose the ability or freedom to sin, rebirth plus abiding in Jesus, therefore, is not the solitary condition that makes it possible for them not to sin.
MM: Why not? Being born again and abiding in Jesus includes everything. What else is needed to empower born again believers to not sin and to mature in the fruits of the Spirit? TE: Please take a look at the logical problem of your statement that I pointed out. If you still don't see what I was pointing out, I'll repeat, if you'd like, tomorrow. MM: “I’m not sure what you’re getting at, though. What does retaining the ability and freedom to sin have to do with it?” Perhaps it would help if you reworded your argument?
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Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how.
[Re: Mountain Man]
#84793
02/03/07 04:35 PM
02/03/07 04:35 PM
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SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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TE: "Eye for eye" is an example of holding the righteousness of God amiss. Loving your enemies, turning the other cheek, etc. are examples of holding it aright.
MM: Why, then, if one cancels the other, did Jesus command both in the OT?
Exodus 21:22 If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart [from her], and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges [determine]. 21:23 And if [any] mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life, 21:24 Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 21:25 Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.
Leviticus 24:15 And thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel, saying, Whosoever curseth his God shall bear his sin. 24:16 And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, [and] all the congregation shall certainly stone him: as well the stranger, as he that is born in the land, when he blasphemeth the name [of the LORD], shall be put to death. 24:17 And he that killeth any man shall surely be put to death. 24:18 And he that killeth a beast shall make it good; beast for beast. 24:19 And if a man cause a blemish in his neighbour; as he hath done, so shall it be done to him; 24:20 Breach for breach, eye for eye, tooth for tooth: as he hath caused a blemish in a man, so shall it be done to him [again]. 24:21 And he that killeth a beast, he shall restore it: and he that killeth a man, he shall be put to death.
Deuteronomy 19:16 If a false witness rise up against any man to testify against him [that which is] wrong; 19:17 Then both the men, between whom the controversy [is], shall stand before the LORD, before the priests and the judges, which shall be in those days; 19:18 And the judges shall make diligent inquisition: and, behold, [if] the witness [be] a false witness, [and] hath testified falsely against his brother; 19:19 Then shall ye do unto him, as he had thought to have done unto his brother: so shalt thou put the evil away from among you. 19:20 And those which remain shall hear, and fear, and shall henceforth commit no more any such evil among you. 19:21 And thine eye shall not pity; [but] life [shall go] for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.
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Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how.
[Re: Mountain Man]
#84796
02/03/07 09:43 PM
02/03/07 09:43 PM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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Tom has the point.John, what is the "nature" of God's righteousness? The nature of God’s righteousness is “life”; “eternal life”. It is the spirit of his righteousness. It is the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus.
Joh 12:50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: Pro 6:23 For the commandment is a lamp; and the law is light; and reproofs of instruction are the way of life: Heb 7:16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life. And, how do people hold it amiss? The simplest way to realize the nature of our righteousness is in how we respond when someone wrongs us, or crosses our idea of right and wrong; our idea of God.
The nature of our righteousness is revealed in the way we make or want to make wrongs right. Are we sorry for the transgressor or for ourselves? Do we become the accuser or mediator? If we condemn and wish for “justice” (retribution), the nature of our righteousness is amiss. It is not the nature of God’s righteousness. It is the righteousness which brings death. This is the law of sin and death.
Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
So to hold it amiss is to use the word of God for the purpose of condemnation, retribution and death. This is the deception of sin.How do they hold it aright? Luk 6:37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:
Thus to hold the nature of God’s righteousness aright is to cease from our own judgment (righteousness) and trust God’s judgment. This we can only do by faith; accept his judgment (grace) in the place of ours. Thus by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Thus we hold the righteousness of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
2Co 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
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Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how.
[Re: Mountain Man]
#84797
02/03/07 09:47 PM
02/03/07 09:47 PM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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TE: "Eye for eye" is an example of holding the righteousness of God amiss. Loving your enemies, turning the other cheek, etc. are examples of holding it aright.
MM: Why, then, if one cancels the other, did Jesus command both in the OT? Mat 5:38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: Mat 5:39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. Mar 10:5 And Jesus answered and said unto them, For the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept.
Hardness of the heart does not yield the nature of God’s righteousness. The one was according to the nature of our righteousness (hardness of heart); the other is according to the nature of his righteousness.
Which nature of righteousness do you aspire?
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Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how.
[Re: John Boskovic]
#84800
02/03/07 10:29 PM
02/03/07 10:29 PM
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SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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JB: Which nature of righteousness do you aspire?
MM: Real righteousness. The kind that blesses man and glorifies God.
Matthew 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
Revelation 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
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Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how.
[Re: Mountain Man]
#84811
02/04/07 03:46 AM
02/04/07 03:46 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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TE: The way that we do right is by thinking right. Our brain controls our actions, and our words. To do right, we must make right decisions, which comes about by thinking right thoughts. God empowers us to do right by teaching us to think right. This is why we are enjoined to do things like meditate upon the life of Christ an hour a day, especially upon the latter scenes; because by beholding we become changed.
MM: Tom, I totally disagree with this idea. Right thinking is not what empowers born again believers to think right, speak right, or do right. The Holy Spirit, residing within them, is what empowers them to not only know what is right but to “will and to do” what is right. “For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure.” I do not believe God simply points out the truth so they can think right and then turns them lose to “go and sin no more”. That’s what it sounds like you’re saying. Please correct me if I’ve misunderstood you. Thank you.
Right thinking is not what empowers born again believers to think right. You really think it's necessary to make this point?
Let's try it this way.
1.The way that we do right is by thinking right. 2.Our brain controls our actions, and our words. 3.To do right, we must make right decisions, which comes about by thinking right thoughts. 4.God empowers us to do right by teaching us to think right. 5.This is why we are enjoined to do things like meditate upon the life of Christ an hour a day, especially upon the latter scenes; because by beholding we become changed.
You say you "totally disagree" with this idea. Which of these points do you disagree with, and why? (In case you didn't notice, I just restated what I said before, but numbered the sentence to make identification easy).
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how.
[Re: Mountain Man]
#84812
02/04/07 03:59 AM
02/04/07 03:59 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Since born again believers do not lose the ability or freedom to sin, rebirth, therefore, is not the solitary condition that makes it possible for them not to sin. You are saying the following: Suppose the following is true: 1.Born again believers do not lose the ability or freedom to sin. It follows that: 2.Rebirth is not the only thing that makes it possible for them not to sin. The problem is with your preliminary statement, 1. You say that since born again believers do not lose the ability or freedom to sin that 2. follows. However, this same logic could be used for any idea postulated as that which makes it possible for them not to sin. Say X is what makes it possible for born again believers not to sin. Then I could make the following argument, based on your logic: 1.Believers with characterist X do not lost the ability or freedom to sin. 2.There X is not the only thing that makes it possible for them not to sin. You've constructed an argument which can never be valid. That's because the last part of your premise "do not lost the ability or freedom to sin" is always false. A valid argument has to have a true premise which implies a true conclusion. Your argument has a false premise, from which not valid argument can ensue. The whole problem is with the phrase "do not lose the ability or freedom to sin". Since this never happens, you cannot make any inferences from this. Your "therefore" does not follow, and cannot follow. No "therefore" can. Here's an analogy: Since Americans do not lose the ability or freedom to get ill, aspirin, therefore, is not the only condition which enables them to get healthy. Your argument is like this one. This argument is invalid, because Americans never lose the freedom or ability to get ill. Do you see the problem?
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how.
[Re: Tom]
#84813
02/04/07 04:02 AM
02/04/07 04:02 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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TE: "Eye for eye" is an example of holding the righteousness of God amiss. Loving your enemies, turning the other cheek, etc. are examples of holding it aright. MM: Why, then, if one cancels the other, did Jesus command both in the OT? For the same reason He commanded this:When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favor in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house.And when she is departed out of his house, she may go and be another man's wife. And if the latter husband hate her, and write her a bill of divorcement, and giveth it in her hand, and sendeth her out of his house; or if the latter husband die, which took her to be his wife; Her former husband, which sent her away, may not take her again to be his wife, after that she is defiled; for that is abomination before the LORD: and thou shalt not cause the land to sin, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance. (Deut. 24:1-4)
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Here is the link to this week's Sabbath School Lesson Study and Discussion Material: Click Here
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