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Re: Is God The Real Author Of The Bible (The Scriptures)? [Re: Rosangela] #90105
06/27/07 02:58 PM
06/27/07 02:58 PM
Darius  Offline
Dedicated Member
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,163
Muncie, IN
Rosangela, please explain why the passage in Ex. 34 bears no resemblance to the list in Ex. 20 or Deut. 5. The bottom line is that Ex. 34 is the only one that says that it was written by the Creator. Ex. 20 only says that "God spake."


Darius A. Lecointe, J.D., Ph.D.
No weapon formed against me shall prosper.
Re: Is God The Real Author Of The Bible (The Scriptures)? [Re: Darius] #90115
06/27/07 05:25 PM
06/27/07 05:25 PM
C
crater  Offline
Veteran Member
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 989
United States
 Originally Posted By: Darius
The following is directly related to the question of the authorship of the Bible.

An e-friend of mine posted this on another forum. I find it to be interesting.


Most people think of the 10 Commandments as the lists in Exodus 20:1-17, or in Deuteronomy 5:6-2, and they're quite similar. But it's interesting to note that the only time in the Pentateuch that the actual words "The Ten Commandments" are used is in Exodus 34, and that chapter lists an entirely different set of commands (Ex. 34:11-26). The next two verses then go on to state:

Quote:
Ex. 34:27. "And the Lord said unto Moses, Write thou these words: for after the tenor of these words I have made a covenant with thee and with Israel.
28. And he was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And He wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.

That's it. The only time, within the Pentateuch, that the phrase "Ten Commandments" is used. Neither Exodus 20 nor Deuteronomy 5 refers to the rules they list as "the Ten Commandments."

You ought to read these alternate commandments. They can be condensed as follows:

Thou shalt worship no other god (For the Lord is a jealous god).
Thou shalt make thee no molten gods.
All the first-born are mine.
Six days shalt thou work, but on the seventh thou shalt rest.
The feast of unleavened bread shalt thou keep in the month when the ear is on the corn.
Thou shalt observe the feast of weeks, even of the first fruits of the wheat harvest, and the feast of ingathering at the year's end.
Thou shalt not offer the blood of my sacrifice with leavened bread.
The fat of my feast shall not remain all night until the morning.
The first of the first fruits of thy ground thou shalt bring unto the house of the Lord thy God.
Thou shalt not seethe a kid in its mother's milk

So my earnest question would be, why, when the Bible very explicitly calls these the Ten Commandments, does everybody else thinks that the Decalogue refers to the others lists, that don't call themselves that?

That is interesting Darius. I just did a fast read through Exodus. It seems to me that we could use the same kind of interpretation in reading Exodus 30, perhaps it was just the Sabbath command that was written in stone by the Self Existent One, on the "first set of stones" You know the ones, that Moses broke in his anger, at the idolatry of Israel, when they "danced naked" around the "molten calf".

From Exodus 34, verse 27 "And the Lord said unto Moses, Write thou these words: for after the tenor of these words I have made a covenant with thee and with Israel."
It appears that the Lord is having Moses do the writing this time. But is it " after the tenor of these words I have made a covenant with thee and with Israel", that Moses is to write or is the Lord making a comment about what Moses will be writing?

 Quote:
12And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,

13Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.

14Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

15Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.

16Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.

17It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.

18And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God.


I did find it interesting how many times the command to keep the 7th day Sabbath is mentioned in Exodus.

How little we study this book of laws.

Re: Is God The Real Author Of The Bible (The Scriptures)? [Re: crater] #90116
06/27/07 08:29 PM
06/27/07 08:29 PM
Darius  Offline
Dedicated Member
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,163
Muncie, IN
Maybe we don't like the implications. It does not support our view of the Bible.


Darius A. Lecointe, J.D., Ph.D.
No weapon formed against me shall prosper.
Re: Is God The Real Author Of The Bible (The Scriptures)? [Re: Darius] #90131
06/28/07 01:53 PM
06/28/07 01:53 PM
C
crater  Offline
Veteran Member
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 989
United States
 Originally Posted By: Darius
Maybe we don't like the implications. It does not support our view of the Bible.
Or maybe we just need to read and study scripture more.

Line upon line ... \:\)

 Quote:
Deuteronomy 10

1At that time the LORD said unto me, Hew thee two tables of stone like unto the first, and come up unto me into the mount, and make thee an ark of wood.

2And I will write on the tables the words that were in the first tables which thou brakest, and thou shalt put them in the ark.

3And I made an ark of shittim wood, and hewed two tables of stone like unto the first, and went up into the mount, having the two tables in mine hand.

4And he wrote on the tables, according to the first writing, the ten commandments, which the LORD spake unto you in the mount out of the midst of the fire in the day of the assembly: and the LORD gave them unto me.

5And I turned myself and came down from the mount, and put the tables in the ark which I had made; and there they be, as the LORD commanded me.

Re: Is God The Real Author Of The Bible (The Scriptures)? [Re: crater] #90140
06/28/07 03:33 PM
06/28/07 03:33 PM
Darius  Offline
Dedicated Member
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,163
Muncie, IN
Crater, you are deliberately missing the point. Why is the version in Ex. 34 completely different from any other in the Pentateuch?


Darius A. Lecointe, J.D., Ph.D.
No weapon formed against me shall prosper.
Re: Is God The Real Author Of The Bible (The Scriptures)? [Re: Darius] #90159
06/29/07 12:27 PM
06/29/07 12:27 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Darius, Ex. 34 does not bring a version of the 10 commandments. They had already been mentioned in Ex. 20 and Moses does not repeat them here. But you will notice that when God made the covenant with the people, in Ex. 20-23, besides the 10 commandments a series of other laws were given, and you will notice that the laws mentioned in Ex. 23 were summarized again in Ex. 34:10-26. So, Ex. 34:10-26 is not a list of the ten commandments, but a summary of other laws given with the ten commandments.

Re: Is God The Real Author Of The Bible (The Scriptures)? [Re: Rosangela] #90164
06/29/07 01:45 PM
06/29/07 01:45 PM
Darius  Offline
Dedicated Member
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,163
Muncie, IN
Rosangela, Ex. 34 is the only place where the phrase "Ten Commandments" is used and the only place where we find something that God wrote. Ex. 20 never says that God wrote it. Your analysis is influenced by your beliefs. You did not do the text justice here. The language of Ex. 34 is very clear. In verse 1 the Creator says He is about to make a second copy of the tablets that Moses broke. The context shows that what Moses called the Ten Commandments are the commands spoken in v. 11 to v. 26 and they are different from anything else in the Pentateuch. Something happened. Regardless of how we slice it we do not have the two copies of the Ten Commandments.


Darius A. Lecointe, J.D., Ph.D.
No weapon formed against me shall prosper.
Re: Is God The Real Author Of The Bible (The Scriptures)? [Re: Darius] #90165
06/29/07 01:54 PM
06/29/07 01:54 PM
C
crater  Offline
Veteran Member
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 989
United States
 Originally Posted By: Darius
Crater, you are deliberately missing the point. Why is the version in Ex. 34 completely different from any other in the Pentateuch?

Darius A. Lecointe, J.D., Ph.D., how dare you "deliberately" judge me? " And for a spirit of judgment to him that sitteth in judgment"

How can I even know what your point is? I was addressing your "Bottom Line"

I believe that Deuteronomy 10:2& 4 answered the "Bottom Line". " Darius A. Lecointe, J.D., Ph.D. you said, “The bottom line is that Ex. 34 is the only one that says that it was written by the Creator. Ex. 20 only says that "God spake." "

But that isn't necessarily a true statement, especially when you follow the line upon line as your guide to studying scripture. We need to get to the meat and quit suckling to avoid the snares. \:\)

Isaiah 28:

9Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.

10For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

Deuteronomy 10:

2And I will write on the tables the words that were in the first tables which thou brakest, and thou shalt put them in the ark.

4And he wrote on the tables, according to the first writing, the ten commandments, which the LORD spake unto you in the mount out of the midst of the fire in the day of the assembly: and the LORD gave them unto me.


How is one to know which quote is your point? Is it an "earnest question"? The "Bottom Line"?

 Quote:
Most people think of the 10 Commandments as the lists in Exodus 20:1-17, or in Deuteronomy 5:6-2, and they're quite similar. But it's interesting to note that the only time in the Pentateuch that the actual words "The Ten Commandments" are used is in Exodus 34, and that chapter lists an entirely different set of commands (Ex. 34:11-26).


 Quote:
That's it. The only time, within the Pentateuch, that the phrase "Ten Commandments" is used. Neither Exodus 20 nor Deuteronomy 5 refers to the rules they list as "the Ten Commandments."


 Quote:
So my earnest question would be, why, when the Bible very explicitly calls these the Ten Commandments, does everybody else thinks that the Decalogue refers to the others lists, that don't call themselves that?


 Quote:
Rosangela, please explain why the passage in Ex. 34 bears no resemblance to the list in Ex. 20 or Deut. 5. The bottom line is that Ex. 34 is the only one that says that it was written by the Creator. Ex. 20 only says that "God spake."


 Quote:
Maybe we don't like the implications. It does not support our view of the Bible.


Now that I know that your point is, " Why is the version in Ex. 34 completely different from any other in the Pentateuch?" I will spend some time while out in nature and see how my most common sense will be inspired to answer this.

Re: Is God The Real Author Of The Bible (The Scriptures)? [Re: Darius] #90167
06/29/07 02:06 PM
06/29/07 02:06 PM
C
crater  Offline
Veteran Member
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 989
United States
 Originally Posted By: Darius
Rosangela, Ex. 34 is the only place where the phrase "Ten Commandments" is used and the only place where we find something that God wrote. Ex. 20 never says that God wrote it. Your analysis is influenced by your beliefs. You did not do the text justice here. The language of Ex. 34 is very clear. In verse 1 the Creator says He is about to make a second copy of the tablets that Moses broke. The context shows that what Moses called the Ten Commandments are the commands spoken in v. 11 to v. 26 and they are different from anything else in the Pentateuch. Something happened. Regardless of how we slice it we do not have the two copies of the Ten Commandments.


"Ex. 34 is the only place where the phrase "Ten Commandments" is used and the only place where we find something that God wrote."

Really Darius A. Lecointe, J.D., Ph.D. this is a bit much even from you! What a totally untrue statement to make! Have you not read Deuteronomy 10: 2 & 4 that I quoted yesterday?

Deuteronomy 10:

2And I will write on the tables the words that were in the first tables which thou brakest, and thou shalt put them in the ark.

4And he wrote on the tables, according to the first writing, the ten commandments, which the LORD spake unto you in the mount out of the midst of the fire in the day of the assembly: and the LORD gave them unto me.

Re: Is God The Real Author Of The Bible (The Scriptures)? [Re: crater] #90170
06/29/07 02:42 PM
06/29/07 02:42 PM
Darius  Offline
Dedicated Member
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,163
Muncie, IN
Crater, I don't follow. Deut. 10 mentions Ten Commandments but it does not contain anything that can be considered the Ten Commandments. Ex. 34 is the only place in the Pentateuch where we find a list that is explicitly associated with the term.


Darius A. Lecointe, J.D., Ph.D.
No weapon formed against me shall prosper.
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