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Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2
[Re: Mountain Man]
#84819
02/04/07 06:22 AM
02/04/07 06:22 AM
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Active Member 2011
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
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Thomas, if the "beast" symbolizes Catholic Europe between 538-1798, then the lamb/dragon beast cannot symbolize a nation before 1798, right? It also seems reasonable to suggest the "image beast" rises to power sometime after 1844.
Mike, nontheless, I claim that people who lived between 538 and 1798 had an opinion about who the beast, the lamblike beast and the image of the beast are. And as you pointed out, what they though about this must by nessesity be something other than what we think about it today. What makes it sure that what we think today wont be changed by tomorrows political upheavls?
Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
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Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2
[Re: vastergotland]
#84828
02/04/07 03:57 PM
02/04/07 03:57 PM
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This is an important text in relation to all prophetic statements:
2 Peter 1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the Scripture is of any private interpretation.
21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
We have three important points in the above text: 1 - sure word of prophecy. (verse 19) 2 - no prophecy of the Scripture is of any private interpretation. (verse 20) 3 - prophecy came to holy men of God as they were moved by the Holy Spirit. (verse 21)
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Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2
[Re: Tom]
#84831
02/04/07 04:11 PM
02/04/07 04:11 PM
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SDA
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Posts: 22,256
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TE: You made the point that there aren't any prophecies in Revelation which aren't conditional. I pointed out some which clearly are. You say these aren't "prophecies" but "promises".
MM: Conditional promises and unconditional prophecies are distinctly differently. Rosangela made this point quite nicely. You’re unwillingness to provide an example of a conditional prophecy in the Revelation is telling.
TE: Regarding your question of Revelation, I believe the traditional Adventist interpretations of prophecy. I'm not the one who has Calvinistic leanings in my prophetic understanding. Our traditional prophetic Adventist understanding is Armenian, not Calvinistic.
MM: I’m not sure I understand your position.
1. Do you believe the prophecies will play out exactly the way the SDA church describes it in LDE and EW and GC, etc?
2. Or, do you believe there is a possibility things might play out slightly or even radically differently?
3. For example, is it possible that the USA will not lead the rest of the world to enforce the MOB?
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Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2
[Re: Mountain Man]
#84836
02/04/07 04:23 PM
02/04/07 04:23 PM
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TV: Mike, nontheless, I claim that people who lived between 538 and 1798 had an opinion about who the beast, the lamblike beast and the image of the beast are. And as you pointed out, what they though about this must by nessesity be something other than what we think about it today. What makes it sure that what we think today wont be changed by tomorrows political upheavls? MM: The SOP makes it clear that there is no way Jesus could have returned before 1844. The prophecies disallow it. Paul confirms this insight: 2 Thessalonians
2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and [by] our gathering together unto him,
2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way.
2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
2:9 [Even him], whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. Here Paul makes it clear that Jesus will not return before the MOB crisis, which places it after 1844. Even though people before 1844 had their opinions about Revelation - they were wrong. It led them to a bitter disappointment. Through the SOP God has made it clear exactly how the prophecies in the Revelation will play out. We have a more sure word of prophecy. We have no reason to wonder or question if we've got it right, or if it will play out differently.
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Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2
[Re: Mountain Man]
#84837
02/04/07 04:31 PM
02/04/07 04:31 PM
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
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TE: You made the point that there aren't any prophecies in Revelation which aren't conditional. I pointed out some which clearly are. You say these aren't "prophecies" but "promises". MM: Conditional promises and unconditional prophecies are distinctly differently. Rosangela made this point quite nicely. You’re unwillingness to provide an example of a conditional prophecy in the Revelation is telling. How could I possibly do this? If I point out that such and such is a conditional prophecy, you will just say (as you did) "No, that's not a prophecy, that's a promise." You will define as a promise anything which is conditional, and anything as a conditional as not a prophecy. It's the same thing you do in the sinless perfection thread. And in the atonement thread. You just redefine words to agree with what you think. My "unwillingness" is not telling of anything other than a lack of desire to go down a path I've gone done before.The SOP quote you are referring to employs the word “sin” in a different sense. Sin, pardon, and repentance, in Lucifer’s case, before he was convicted of wrongdoing, cannot mean the same things they mean nowadays. TE: Regarding your question of Revelation, I believe the traditional Adventist interpretations of prophecy. I'm not the one who has Calvinistic leanings in my prophetic understanding. Our traditional prophetic Adventist understanding is Armenian, not Calvinistic. MM: I’m not sure I understand your position. 1. Do you believe the prophecies will play out exactly the way the SDA church describes it in LDE and EW and GC, etc? 2. Or, do you believe there is a possibility things might play out slightly or even radically differently? 3. For example, is it possible that the USA will not lead the rest of the world to enforce the MOB? I think you're confusing the SDA church with Ellen White, but to answer your question, I think the future will play out according to the principles that were laid out in the Great Controversy state, as well as other prophetic writings in Scripture and the Spirit of Prophecy. I agree with Ellen White's writings regarding the interpretation of the mark of the beast and the role of the United States.
In addition, I agree with what she wrote about the importance of the 1888 message, and that the role it will have in prophecy is as she described, which is a reason I believe it's important to study and understand the messages the Lord sent us through its messengers.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2
[Re: Tom]
#84844
02/04/07 06:15 PM
02/04/07 06:15 PM
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TE: My "unwillingness" is not telling of anything other than a lack of desire to go down a path I've gone done before.
MM: You're not only disagreeing with me, you are also disagreeing with Rosangela. Again, there are no unconditional prophecies in the Revelation. Jesus is telling it like it is and like it will be. We have no reason to doubt it.
TE: I think you're confusing the SDA church with Ellen White ...
MM: I believe SDA theology is confirmed by the SOP. Any deviation from the SOP is, in my opinion, falsehood.
TE: I think the future will play out according to the principles that were laid out in the Great Controversy state, as well as other prophetic writings in Scripture and the Spirit of Prophecy. I agree with Ellen White's writings regarding the interpretation of the mark of the beast and the role of the United States.
MM: Amen!
TE: In addition, I agree with what she wrote about the importance of the 1888 message, and that the role it will have in prophecy is as she described, which is a reason I believe it's important to study and understand the messages the Lord sent us through its messengers.
MM: Amen! That's why I give Steps to Christ to everyone who shows an interest in righteousness by faith.
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Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2
[Re: Mountain Man]
#84853
02/04/07 09:29 PM
02/04/07 09:29 PM
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TE: My "unwillingness" is not telling of anything other than a lack of desire to go down a path I've gone done before.
MM: You're not only disagreeing with me, you are also disagreeing with Rosangela. Again, there are no unconditional prophecies in the Revelation. Jesus is telling it like it is and like it will be. We have no reason to doubt it.
To the best of my recollection, Rosangela has never had to rely upon redefining words to make an argument. If she is saying the same thing you are, then I can just respond to her arguments, and that will take care of yours as well.
TE: I think you're confusing the SDA church with Ellen White ...
MM: I believe SDA theology is confirmed by the SOP. Any deviation from the SOP is, in my opinion, falsehood.
I was referring to what you wrote. The SDA church did not describe things in The Great Controversy, etc. That was Ellen White.
TE: I think the future will play out according to the principles that were laid out in the Great Controversy state, as well as other prophetic writings in Scripture and the Spirit of Prophecy. I agree with Ellen White's writings regarding the interpretation of the mark of the beast and the role of the United States.
MM: Amen!
TE: In addition, I agree with what she wrote about the importance of the 1888 message, and that the role it will have in prophecy is as she described, which is a reason I believe it's important to study and understand the messages the Lord sent us through its messengers.
MM: Amen! That's why I give Steps to Christ to everyone who shows an interest in righteousness by faith.
Interesting response. You give out a book written before the 1888 message was given written by someone who was not one of the 1888 messengers because you agree that it's important to study and understand the 1888 message.
Not that there's anything wrong with handing out copies of "Steps to Christ." It's a great book. It's just an odd response to what I wrote.
I would think an appropriate response to the things she wrote regarding the 1888 message and the messengers who brought it would be to read the message itself from the messengers who gave it.
(btw, are you aware that Ellen White knew she did not bring the 1888 message? I'm asking this be you seem to be referring to her as if she had.)
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2
[Re: Tom]
#84860
02/04/07 10:33 PM
02/04/07 10:33 PM
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Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
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Ehm, you appear to fail to get my point. Anyways, moving on.
Obviously we know the mark of the beast happends after 1844, becourse now is 163 years hence and it hasnt happened yet. If that is really what Paul is talking about? Dont know.
So we do not need to think anymore since Ellen did that for us?
If that works for you...
Thomas
Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
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Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2
[Re: vastergotland]
#84870
02/05/07 03:34 AM
02/05/07 03:34 AM
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SDA
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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TE: Interesting response. You give out a book written before the 1888 message was given written by someone who was not one of the 1888 messengers because you agree that it's important to study and understand the 1888 message.
MM: Steps to Christ was published in 1892.
TE: (btw, are you aware that Ellen White knew she did not bring the 1888 message? I'm asking this be you seem to be referring to her as if she had.)
MM: She was teaching it before 1888. SC is the best synthesis of the 1888 message available today.
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Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2
[Re: Mountain Man]
#84871
02/05/07 03:42 AM
02/05/07 03:42 AM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
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TV: Ehm, you appear to fail to get my point. MM: Here what you wrote: Mike, nontheless, I claim that people who lived between 538 and 1798 had an opinion about who the beast, the lamblike beast and the image of the beast are. And as you pointed out, what they though about this must by nessesity be something other than what we think about it today. What makes it sure that what we think today wont be changed by tomorrows political upheavls? MM: "What makes it sure that what we think today wont be changed by tomorrows political upheavls?" Because God confirmed "what we think today" through the SOP. TV: If that is really what Paul is talking about? Dont know. MM: The SOP verifies it. TV: So we do not need to think anymore since Ellen did that for us? If that works for you... MM: Thinking that undermines or contradicts the interpretation God outlined in the SOP is, in my opinion, damnable heresy.
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