Rosangela, thank you. Nicely put. I agree with it. Even in cases involving conditional promises or prophecies, ones which can go either way depending on human choice, God knows exactly how it will play out beforehand, from eternity past.

I still don't know the answer to this question, "In regards to Judas, is it possible that Judas could have not betrayed Christ?"

In case this isn't clear, I'm asking if it actually could have happened that Judas did not betray Christ. (i.e. could we have had a history which did not have Judas betraying Christ).

Let's say that it's given that history up until the point in time when Judas decided to betray Christ is as we know it (so prophecy has already been recorded).

Regarding the purpose of prophecy, I don't think any of the contemporaries of prophecy thought of it as having anything to do with God's omniscience. That weren't concerned about what God knew, but with what He could do. Indeed, the prophecy states:



God's purpose was to build trust in Him by demonstrating that He was able to do that which He said He would do.

Also even the idea that Isa. 46 is unconditional doesn't seem right.



Israel rejected Christ, so they did not see this prophecy come to pass.

Can something that God knows how it will play out happen differently than what God knows will happen?

Rosangela

Would it be possible that some prophesies point out the general direction but not nessessarily the specifics? For instance, if Judas had choosen not to betray Jesus after all, someone else would have done it instead? Or, there will be a man of sin, but more exactly who or in what position are details that are as of now open?

I don’t know how my answer can be different from what I’ve already said.
Could it actually have happened that Christ did not die on the cross but chose to go back to heaven? Could it actually have happened that Christ did not bruise the serpent’s head but, instead, fell into temptation and sinned?
What is the answer to these questions? Yes or no? Yes, in the sense that these were very real and concrete possibilities, but No in the sense that God knew beforehand the outcome of things.


Isa. 46:11 refers to Cyrus. I see two possibilities here:
1) God stated beforehand how things would happen because He knew it (showing His omniscience)
2) God stated beforehand how things would happen because He would force things to happen that way (showing His power)


I disagree. God placed salvation in Zion for the remnant in Israel.

Thomas,

God seems to be very specific in His prophecies, so that their fulfillment isn't missed.

For instance, God said about the betrayer: "Even my close friend, in whom I trusted, who ate my bread, has lifted up his heel against me" (Psalms 41:9). And then Jesus said: "'Truly, I say to you, one of you will betray me, one who is eating with me.' They began to be sorrowful, and to say to him one after another, 'Is it I?' He said to them, 'It is one of the twelve, one who is dipping bread into the dish with me'" (Mk 14:18-20). So, it would be someone from Christ's closest circle of friends, that is, the twelve.

As to the man of sin, the lawless one who will be destroyed by Christ's coming (2 Thess. 2:8), and who opposes God and exalts himself above Him, he has the same characteristics of the leopardlike beast of Revelation, who would exercise authority for 42 months, and the same characteristics of the little horn of Daniel, who would prevail for 3 1/2 times. But Daniel shows that this little horn arises out of the Roman Empire, the fourth beast, and is destroyed only just before the saints receive the kingdom (Daniel 7:7-27). So we must look for a power which arises out of the Roman Empire and remains until it is destroyed by Chirst's coming.

TE: In case this isn't clear, I'm asking if it actually could have happened that Judas did not betray Christ. (i.e. could we have had a history which did not have Judas betraying Christ).

R: What is the answer to these questions? Yes or no? Yes, in the sense that these were very real and concrete possibilities, but No in the sense that God knew beforehand the outcome of things.

MM: I agree with Rosangela.

TE: Can something that God knows how it will play out happen differently than what God knows will happen?

MM: No. Unconditional prophecies will play out exactly as God foretold. God’s knowing the end from the beginning, however, in no way robs people of their ability or freedom to choose.

Deuteronomy
18:22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that [is] the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, [but] the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

In case this isn't clear, I'm asking if it actually could have happened that Judas did not betray Christ. (i.e. could we have had a history which did not have Judas betraying Christ).

I don’t know how my answer can be different from what I’ve already said.
Could it actually have happened that Christ did not die on the cross but chose to go back to heaven? Could it actually have happened that Christ did not bruise the serpent’s head but, instead, fell into temptation and sinned?
What is the answer to these questions? Yes or no? Yes, in the sense that these were very real and concrete possibilities, but No in the sense that God knew beforehand the outcome of things.

In the case of Christ, God has told us (through Ellen White) that it was a risk for Him to send His Son. That means He knew that Christ might not succeed. But we can set this aside for the moment, and go back to Judas.

Here's what I'm asking. Was it possible for Judas not only to choose to betray Christ, but to actually betray Christ? Was it an event which actually could have happened? This is a question which can be answered "yes" or "no."


Quote:
Regarding the purpose of prophecy, I don't think any of the contemporaries of prophecy thought of it as having anything to do with God's omniscience. That weren't concerned about what God knew, but with what He could do.

Isa. 46:11 refers to Cyrus. I see two possibilities here:
1) God stated beforehand how things would happen because He knew it (showing His omniscience)
2) God stated beforehand how things would happen because He would force things to happen that way (showing His power)

There's a third possibility, which is that it is some combination of 1) and 2). If you look at the stated purpose of the prophesy, it was to show that God could bring to pass what He said He would.

Quote:
Israel rejected Christ, so they did not see this prophecy come to pass.

I disagree. God placed salvation in Zion for the remnant in Israel.

The context is talking about the nation of Israel. The nation of Israel rejected Christ.

TE: In case this isn't clear, I'm asking if it actually could have happened that Judas did not betray Christ. (i.e. could we have had a history which did not have Judas betraying Christ).

R: What is the answer to these questions? Yes or no? Yes, in the sense that these were very real and concrete possibilities, but No in the sense that God knew beforehand the outcome of things.

MM: I agree with Rosangela.

This is a question which can be answered "yes" or "no." Was it possible for Judas not only to have chosen to betray Christ, but to actually have betrayed him? Is this an event which could have happened? From the answer to the following question, it appears to me your answer must be "no."

TE: Can something that God knows how it will play out happen differently than what God knows will happen?

MM: No.

Ok, let's stop here a moment. If something that God knows how it will play out cannot happen differently than what God knows will happen, then is there anything that can happen differently than what God has already seen? The answer must be know, right?

Unconditional prophecies will play out exactly as God foretold.

This is irrelevant, isn't it? The relevant factor is that God knows exactly what will happen, and things cannot happen differently than what He knows. What you call unconditional prophecies are simply a small subset of the totality of what God knows will happen which He has chosen to share with us.

God’s knowing the end from the beginning, however, in no way robs people of their ability or freedom to choose.

This isn't the problem.

Deuteronomy
18:22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that [is] the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, [but] the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

TE: Ok, let's stop here a moment. If something that God knows how it will play out cannot happen differently than what God knows will happen, then is there anything that can happen differently than what God has already seen? The answer must be know, right?

MM: Right. God knows the future in the same way He knows the past. It is based on the facts. He knows the end from the beginning. God "calleth those things which be not as though they were." (Rom. 4:17) In such cases, there is nothing uncertain or conditional about it.

Isaiah
42:9 Behold, the former things are come to pass, and new things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them.

John
13:19 Now I tell you before it come, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am [he].
14:29 And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe.