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Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how.
[Re: Mountain Man]
#84990
02/07/07 04:39 PM
02/07/07 04:39 PM
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Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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I already know you think that "He cannot sin because he is born of God" means "He cannot commit a known sin because he is born again, plus is abiding in Jesus." Is there some other point you want to make?
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how.
[Re: Tom]
#84998
02/07/07 06:02 PM
02/07/07 06:02 PM
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SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
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Posts: 22,256
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Actually, I am curious about the phrase "for his seed remaineth in him". (vs 9) Do you see this as a reason why born again believers "cannot sin"?
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Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how.
[Re: Mountain Man]
#85000
02/07/07 08:08 PM
02/07/07 08:08 PM
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Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how.
[Re: Tom]
#85002
02/07/07 08:18 PM
02/07/07 08:18 PM
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Active Member 2012
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Jesus said, Be perfect as your Father is perfect. If you are the children of God you are partakers of His nature, and you cannot but be like Him. Every child lives by the life of his father. If you are God's children, begotten by His Spirit, you live by the life of God. In Christ dwells "all the fullness of the Godhead bodily" (Colossians 2:9); and the life of Jesus is made manifest "in our mortal flesh" (2 Corinthians 4:11). That life in you will produce the same character and manifest the same works as it did in Him. Thus you will be in harmony with every precept of His law; for "the law of the Lord is perfect, restoring the soul." Psalm 19:7, margin. Through love "the righteousness of the law" will be "fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." Romans 8:4. (MB 77, 78) I think this expresses the same idea as John, in terms of what it means to say that a born again person cannot sin because His seed remains in him.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how.
[Re: Tom]
#85019
02/08/07 01:56 AM
02/08/07 01:56 AM
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SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
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Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how.
[Re: Mountain Man]
#85021
02/08/07 02:55 AM
02/08/07 02:55 AM
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Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
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That's a beautiful quote, isn't it? The part right before it is good too. (Well, the whole book is good). It talks about how God has made provision what we will be like Him (Christ), and He will accomplish this if we don't interpose a perverse will and thus frustrate His grace.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how.
[Re: Tom]
#85046
02/08/07 03:38 PM
02/08/07 03:38 PM
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SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
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It sounds like we're on the same page as to what Jesus does for us and through us when we do not hinder the Holy Spirit. I thoroughly love it, that is, walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man, not sinning, and maturing in the fruits of the Spirit - being like Jesus. Thank you Jesus!
Unfortunately I suspect we are not on the same page so far as just how converted, transformed people are the moment they are born again. I believe Jesus carefully, cautiously reveals to them all of their cultivated sinful habits, not too fast, not too slow, so as to not blow them away, and that they experience the miracle of rebirth the instant their last habit is revealed and confessed.
At this precise point they are justified, counted as though they have never sinned. Jesus implants within them the sinless seed or mind of he new man, which comes complete with all of the righteous fruit and attributes of God's character. Not one trait or fruit is missing. They are not, however, born again mature. Like Jesus, they grow in grace and mature in the fruits of the Spirit so long as they are actively and aggressively abiding in Jesus.
Eternity is not long enough to exhaust their ability to become more and more mature, more and more like Jesus. This process of sanctification, which begins the instant they are reborn, continues throughout eternity. It involves maturing in the fruits of the Spirit. It does not include discovering cultivated sinful habits, which hitherto had not been revealed, which Jesus was waiting to reveal to them at a more convenient time. Sanctification only involves maturing in the fruits of the Spirit.
Again, I suspect we disagree regarding some of these details. I hope we can discuss them.
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Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how.
[Re: Mountain Man]
#85065
02/08/07 05:40 PM
02/08/07 05:40 PM
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Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
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Unfortunately I suspect we are not on the same page so far as just how converted, transformed people are the moment they are born again. I believe Jesus carefully, cautiously reveals to them all of their cultivated sinful habits, not too fast, not too slow, so as to not blow them away, and that they experience the miracle of rebirth the instant their last habit is revealed and confessed. I don't know a single person to whom this definition of being born again applies. How, then, are we to be saved? "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness," so the Son of man has been lifted up, and everyone who has been deceived and bitten by the serpent may look and live. "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." John 1:29. The light shining from the cross reveals the love of God. His love is drawing us to Himself. If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour. Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul. The thoughts and desires are brought into obedience to the will of Christ. The heart, the mind, are created anew in the image of Him who works in us to subdue all things to Himself. Then the law of God is written in the mind and heart, and we can say with Christ, "I delight to do Thy will, O my God." Ps. 40:8. My experience was similar to this. Those who I know who have been converted have had experiences similar to this. I don't know anyone who has had the born again experience you are describing.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how.
[Re: Tom]
#85119
02/09/07 03:19 AM
02/09/07 03:19 AM
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SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
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Sister White certainly described it the way I did:
SC 29 One ray of the glory of God, one gleam of the purity of Christ, penetrating the soul, makes every spot of defilement painfully distinct, and lays bare the deformity and defects of the human character. It makes apparent the unhallowed desires, the infidelity of the heart, the impurity of the lips. The sinner's acts of disloyalty in making void the law of God, are exposed to his sight, and his spirit is stricken and afflicted under the searching influence of the Spirit of God. He loathes himself as he views the pure, spotless character of Christ. {SC 29.1}
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Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how.
[Re: Mountain Man]
#85133
02/09/07 10:05 AM
02/09/07 10:05 AM
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Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
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No, that's not describing things at all like you say; it's explaining things according to the way I was saying, according to the way people actually experience conversion. When one is converted, one is made aware of one's sinfulness and one's need for Christ. These are the two overriding things. Ask anyone who has been converted, and these two things will be mentioned, surely. What you are saying is that conversion has to do not with a need for Christ or a conviction of one's sinfulness, but with having every sinful habit cultivated from birth revealed by the Holy Spirit. At the precise moment the last sinful habit is revealed, then the process of being born again is completed. That neither ties in with reality or Scripture. I don't know a single person who has had that experience. Here's an example of conversion from Scripture: 13 And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me a sinner!' 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.(Luke 18:13, 14)
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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