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Re: The Contradiction
[Re: Mountain Man]
#85216
02/10/07 08:28 PM
02/10/07 08:28 PM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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If God does not have a choice, he cannot give one to us.
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Re: The Contradiction
[Re: John Boskovic]
#85217
02/10/07 08:32 PM
02/10/07 08:32 PM
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God chose, by His own freedom of choice, to also give His created beings the freedom to make their own choices and He hasn't removed that freedom from us, even though He could, if He so chooses, however, I do not think He will ever make such a choice, as it would be out of character for Him to do so.
Of course, there are consequences in the choices we make, such as the consequences in the choice both Eve and Adam made.
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Re: The Contradiction
[Re: Daryl]
#85218
02/10/07 09:04 PM
02/10/07 09:04 PM
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Most Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,332
BC, Canada
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Thomas, Can you explain what you are saying by this:
and "Free will" is a sham, a hoax, a lie.
Where did you get that idea from, let alone who said it was a sham, and a hoax, and a lie? God Bless, Will
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Re: The Contradiction
[Re: Will]
#85222
02/10/07 09:16 PM
02/10/07 09:16 PM
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OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Another question to consider is what makes it possible for God to see the future. I think many think that God has some special power that we don't have, like a witch who can gaze into a crystal ball. I don't perceive it that way. I think God experiences time similarly to how we do (there are literally dozens of Scripture passages, maybe hundreds, which present God in this way, as experiencing time; just to mention one, God repented that He had made man). The difference between God's knowledge of the future and ours is one of intelligence.
This makes God just a better guesser than we are. We have to guess because or knowledge and intelligence is limited. God is not limited in either knowledge nor intelligence, hence there is no need for Him to guess.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: The Contradiction
[Re: Daryl]
#85223
02/10/07 09:16 PM
02/10/07 09:16 PM
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Most Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,332
BC, Canada
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Thomas, After reading your post, post#85199. YOu said:
What you say here, is that God knew Eve would eat the fruit, and Eve did eat the fruit, and thats it. Fine, God knows what will happen and thats whats going to happen and "Free will" is a sham, a hoax, a lie.
Good to have that cleared out.
#1 Keep in mind that Jesus was the Lamb that was slain before the foundation of the world. The plan for salvation was in place before a bird flew in the air in the earth's history. Make of it what you feel like.
Considering your previous sentence, do you mean to say that God has given us a choise,
Thats exactly what I said, no except, no if's and or but's about it. We have 2 choices, obey , or not. Its easy as that, only people make it more difficult than it is. except in those cases where He has forseen what that choise will be, in which cases there is no choise but the one which has been forseen?
Uhh.. Ok.. Becourse if we at all times have a choise, then your previous answere can not be true that if A is forseen, then only A can happen, becourse if only A can happen, then there is no choise involved.
[/quote
Eve did not have to eat the fruit did she, but she CHOSE to do it. easy for me to understand, we're not making a new form of matter, take the red pill or the blue pill, its your choice.
[quote]If there is a choise, Eve could have choosen not to listen to the serpant, she could have choosen not to eat the fruit.
No if's, its a fact, she chose to eat it, or did the devil put a gun to her head, or tie her up and force feed it to her? She took and ate, you have to reach out, and put it in your own mouth. Doesnt sound to complicated to me.
But if God knew that Eve should eat the fruit, and becourse God knew it, it must happen, then Eve never had a choise.
Because it must happen? No it it did not have to happen, but it did. God Bless & Happy Sabbath, Will
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Re: The Contradiction
[Re: Daryl]
#85224
02/10/07 09:22 PM
02/10/07 09:22 PM
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OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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If there was a genuine choice available (that affects the outcome) in the eyes of God, and not just in my imagination, then in the mind of God the outcome is not fixed, because there is a choice.
Right? Right! How could it be otherwise? In the mind of God, the outcome is not fixed, because it isn't. That is, the mind of God reflects the reality of our choice not being fixed.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: The Contradiction
[Re: Tom]
#85225
02/10/07 09:37 PM
02/10/07 09:37 PM
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In the case of Eve and then Adam, God told them not to eat that forbidden fruit, which we can refer to as choice A. To disobey and eat that fruit we can refer to as choice B.
God also told them that, if they did eat it (Choice A), there would be devastating consequences in that they would surely die.
It was God's revealed will to both Adam and Eve that they do NOT eat that fruit. Adam and Eve chose to use their freedom of choice by choosing against the will of God.
God in His foreknowledge knew in advance that Adam and Eve would go against His will and eat that fruit. This is why the Plan of Salvation was conceived by the Godhead. Christ, at the right time, died the death that Adam and Eve should have died. He also died the death that we should die of, "For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23).
Here is a case where God didn't want Adam and Eve to choose choice A, but rather wanted them to choose Choice B. God, however, knew Adam and Eve would choose Choice A over Choice B, even before they chose it, and even responded in advance (Plan of Salvation) even before Choice A took place.
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Re: The Contradiction
[Re: Tom]
#85227
02/10/07 09:41 PM
02/10/07 09:41 PM
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Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
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Will, you are right, it is quite simple.
#1, Jesus was the lamb slain before the foundation of the world. This is a act of God. Of course God can make things happen.
#2, I have no problem with God giving us a choise. None at all. In fact, that is the point I am trying to promote.
#3, I could accept God knowing the future as surely as if it was a rerun, written down black on white in a book, burned in stone by the very finger of God.
#4, What I cannot agree with is #2 and #3 both being true at the same time. If these words I have written in this post where known, as if written in stone, by God from before the foundation of the world, then I had no choise in writing them. I could not NOT have written them. If God knew I would write this from before Adam drew his first breath, then I am merely fullfilling what must happen when I write this and post it. As far as I can see, to be honest, I must choose between #2 and #3, to try and argue both at the same time would be a lie, at least for me.
Thomas
Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
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Re: The Contradiction
[Re: Daryl]
#85230
02/10/07 10:20 PM
02/10/07 10:20 PM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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God in His foreknowledge knew in advance that Adam and Eve would go against His will and eat that fruit. This is why the Plan of Salvation was conceived by the Godhead. Christ, at the right time, died the death that Adam and Eve should have died. He also died the death that we should die of, "For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23).
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Re: The Contradiction
[Re: John Boskovic]
#85231
02/10/07 10:50 PM
02/10/07 10:50 PM
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I am saying no such thing.
God knowing what would happen is very different from God making it happen.
It's because of God's giving us freedom to choose that God let it happen. To do otherwise, would be His removing our freedom of choice.
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