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Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2 [Re: Tom] #87053
03/27/07 04:30 PM
03/27/07 04:30 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
What could have been and should have been does not change the fact God knows in advance exactly what will happen. Just because He reveals it to us a little bit at a time does not mean He doesn't know how it will play out.

Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2 [Re: Mountain Man] #87062
03/27/07 05:06 PM
03/27/07 05:06 PM
Tom  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
 Quote:
What could have been and should have been does not change the fact God knows in advance exactly what will happen. Just because He reveals it to us a little bit at a time does not mean He doesn't know how it will play out.


I'm not following why you would post this. The first statement says:

 Quote:
What could have been and should have been does not change the fact God knows in advance exactly what will happen.


Do you think anyone is asserting the converse this? (i.e. that what could have been or should have been changes what God knows will happen)

Also this is odd:

 Quote:
Just because He reveals it to us a little bit at a time does not mean He doesn't know how it will play out.


Is anyone asserting the converse of this?

Why are you pointing out this self-evident things?


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2 [Re: Tom] #87106
03/28/07 01:02 PM
03/28/07 01:02 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
 Quote:
Rosangela, Kevin covered your comment in detail. *That* Christ's coming would happen was not in question, but the details weren't set in stone, as Kevin pointed out. Iow, Christ could have come much earlier than He did, had the Hebrews responded positively to God's overtures at some previous point.

I have a different opinion. The prophecies about Christ are very specific and I don't consider the details to be conditional, even if the Jews had responded positively - the place in which He would be born, the details about His death, the time of His coming according to the 70-week prophecy.

Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2 [Re: Tom] #87107
03/28/07 01:07 PM
03/28/07 01:07 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Active Member 2019

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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Tom, are implying you agree with it? That is, do you believe God knows in advance exactly how things will play out before it happens? Or, do you believe God knows a multitude of possible outcomes but that He does not know exactly which one will happen before it happens?

You have mentioned the "err this" quotes in the past to prove God does not know exactly when Jesus will return, that the date is tentative, not set in stone. I do not agree. I believe the "err this" quotes simply teach what could have been or should have been. They do not imply God isn't certain of the date, that the date is flexible.

Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2 [Re: Mountain Man] #87136
03/28/07 05:56 PM
03/28/07 05:56 PM
Tom  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
MM, you wrote:

 Quote:
What could have been and should have been does not change the fact God knows in advance exactly what will happen. Just because He reveals it to us a little bit at a time does not mean He doesn't know how it will play out.


and

 Quote:
What could have been and should have been does not change the fact God knows in advance exactly what will happen.


I said I didn't know anyone was asserting the converse of either of these things, which would be, respectively:

a)What could have been and should have been does change the fact God knows in advance exactly what will happen. Because He reveals it to us a little bit at a time means He doesn't know how it will play out.

and

b)What could have been and should have been changes the fact God knows in advance exactly what will happen.

These assertions seem like utter nonsense to me. I don't know anyone who believes these things. I certainly don't.

Your rebutting points no one is making.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2 [Re: Tom] #87137
03/28/07 05:58 PM
03/28/07 05:58 PM
Tom  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
 Quote:
They do not imply God isn't certain of the date, that the date is flexible.


Please consider the following quote:

 Quote:
"When the fruit is brought forth, immediately he putteth in the sickle, because the harvest is come." Christ is waiting with longing desire for the manifestation of Himself in His church. When the character of Christ shall be perfectly reproduced in His people, then He will come to claim them as His own.

It is the privilege of every Christian not only to look for but to hasten the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, (2 Peter 3:12, margin). Were all who profess His name bearing fruit to His glory, how quickly the whole world would be sown with the seed of the gospel. Quickly the last great harvest would be ripened, and Christ would come to gather the precious grain. (COL 69)


I doubt it's possible to express any more clearly than this that the date *is* flexible.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2 [Re: Tom] #87138
03/28/07 06:08 PM
03/28/07 06:08 PM
Tom  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
 Quote:
I have a different opinion. The prophecies about Christ are very specific and I don't consider the details to be conditional, even if the Jews had responded positively - the place in which He would be born, the details about His death, the time of His coming according to the 70-week prophecy.


Daniel is only treating the case where Israel rejected the good path given earlier. Had they taken the good path, Daniel's prophesies would not have been written, so his timetable would not even have been an issue.

Waggoner discusses this idea (Israel taking the good path) in the Glad Tidings:

 Quote:

"Why didn't the Lord bring the people directly to Mount Zion then, where they could find the law as life, and not to Mount Sinai, where it was only death?"

That is a very natural question, and one that is easily answered. It was because of their unbelief. When God brought Israel out of Egypt, it was His purpose to bring them to Mount Zion as directly as they could go. When they had crossed the Red Sea, they sang an inspired song, of which this was a part: "Thou in Thy mercy hast led forth the people which Thou hast redeemed; Thou hast guided them in Thy strength unto Thy holy habitation." "Thou shalt bring them in, and plant them in the mountain of Thine inheritance, in the place, O Lord, which Thou hast made for Thee to dwell in, in the sanctuary, O Lord, which Thy hands have established." Ex.15:13,17. If they had continued singing, they would very soon have come to Zion; for the redeemed of the Lord "come with singing unto Zion," and everlasting joy is upon their heads. Is.35:10; 51:11. The dividing of the Red Sea was the proof of this. See verse 10. But they soon forgot the Lord, and murmured in unbelief. Therefore "the law was added because of transgressions." It was their own fault--the result of their sinful unbelief--that they came to Mount Sinai instead of to Mount Zion.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2 [Re: Tom] #87139
03/28/07 06:26 PM
03/28/07 06:26 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Tom,

Does God know the day of Christ's coming or doesn't He?

Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2 [Re: Rosangela] #87146
03/28/07 06:56 PM
03/28/07 06:56 PM
Tom  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Yes, according to how God sees the future (not how you think He does).


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2 [Re: Tom] #87148
03/28/07 07:07 PM
03/28/07 07:07 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Jesus said God knew the day and the hour of His coming. To know a date means that that date cannot be another date - or else you don't really know what the date is.

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