I don't agree, but thats Ok. I believe that God knows the end from the beginning, its very simple for me.

Of course God knows the end from the beginning, but how many beginnings are there, one or two? For example, Eve could have eaten from the forbidden tree or not. If she did, God knew what would happen. If she didn't, God knew what would happen there too. The fact that God knows the end from the beginning does not mean that the future isn't open. God can know an open future, and know the end from the beginning, just as well with an open future as with a determined one.

Tom: As to why it's important, it provides a framework to answer such questions as, if God knew Lucifer was going to sin, why did He create him.

Will: Thats easy. God gives everyone a choice. Your decision will affect the outcome either good or bad.

I'm going to switch from Lucifer to Eve, because there's a well defined event to consider for Eve, the eating of the fruit.

If God knows that a given event will happen, say A and not B, is it possible for B not to happen? So far everyone participating here has said no, it's not possible for B to happen.

Let's apply this to the eating of the forbidden fruit. If God saw that Eve would eat the forbidden fruit, then, from the previous paragraph, it was not possible for her to not eat the forbidden fruit. Does this make sense to you?

This seems sarcastic too. A lot of sarcasm lately. You'll probably deny it, but it's pretty easy to recognize.

Since you've brought up my appearing not to want to learn as a fellow Bible student, allow me to ask you a question. Have you learned anything from me? I've learned from you.


Tom

if he knows A will happen, then it will happen.



Makes absolutely no sense to me, a lot of hypothesizing and way too much thinking into what is a moot point, she ate it, Adam follow soon after, God gave His only begotten Son to redeem us, He was crucified, He was risen from the grave by The Father, He came to destroy the works of the devil, and to set us free.God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.Christ will come, and take us home.
A persons decision affects the outcome, God has given us a choice, we make those choices based on our faith or lack of faith. All things work together for good to them that love God.
God Bless & Happy Sabbath,
Will

What you say here, is that God knew Eve would eat the fruit, and Eve did eat the fruit, and thats it. Fine, God knows what will happen and thats whats going to happen and "Free will" is a sham, a hoax, a lie.

Good to have that cleared out.Considering your previous sentence, do you mean to say that God has given us a choise, except in those cases where He has forseen what that choise will be, in which cases there is no choise but the one which has been forseen? Becourse if we at all times have a choise, then your previous answere can not be true that if A is forseen, then only A can happen, becourse if only A can happen, then there is no choise involved. If there is a choise, Eve could have choosen not to listen to the serpant, she could have choosen not to eat the fruit. But if God knew that Eve should eat the fruit, and becourse God knew it, it must happen, then Eve never had a choise.

I too wish this was simple but I can see no simple way to understand how I both could have a free choise while God at the same time would know exactly what I will not chose, at all time, forever.

Thomas

TE: MM, you're not offering any help on what words you'd like me to choose. I'm labeling the elements of your arguments. It's not personal. I'm not labeling you in any way. If you present an argument which is unsound, how should I regard it? How about "unsound"?

MM: By using words like “unsound” or “illogical” to label elements of an argument you are expressing an opinion. Opinions are, by nature, personal. Labeling something “irrelevant” is also a personal opinion. Such opinions are inherently insulting. It smacks of – “Whoever shared such an illogical idea must be unsound.” Which, as you can imagine, does not encourage dialogue. Nor does it sound kind and loving.

TE: You're suggesting that I share what I think without labeling your arguments, but I have to respond to the argument in some way. Would you prefer it if I just said, "I disagree. This is why."?

MM: Sure. Or, “I’m not sure how it relates to the topic” or, “It doesn’t make sense to me” or, “I see what you’re saying, but this makes more sense to me”.

TE: Or would you prefer that I not respond to your arguments at all, and just share what I think as if I hadn't read what you wrote?

MM: Sometimes that works, too.

TE: I'm not sure what you're wanting MM. Please elaborate, and I'll try to go along with your wishes.

MM: By all means, do as you please. I am not telling you what to do. I shared my personal preferences, but you are free to do as you please. You asked me to share more details. I simply responded to your request. Again, I am not telling you how to post your thoughts and ideas. God forbid!

TE: If God knows that a given event will happen, say A and not B, is it possible for B not to happen? So far everyone participating here has said no, it's not possible for B to happen.

MM: When you factor God into the equation there is no “B”. Since God knows the future like history there is only one truth, there is no “B”. There is no such thing as “B”. There is only what actually and factually happened. With God it is not what "will" or "might" happen, but it is what "has" happened.

TE: Let's apply this to the eating of the forbidden fruit. If God saw that Eve would eat the forbidden fruit, then, from the previous paragraph, it was not possible for her to not eat the forbidden fruit. Does this make sense to you?

MM: “If God saw” implies God did not see. Which does not make sense to me. God knows “the” end from “the” beginning – not “an” end from “a” beginning. God does not report what might happen. Instead, He reports what has happened. There is no question in God’s mind what will happen. He has already seen it happen.

TE: This seems sarcastic too. A lot of sarcasm lately. You'll probably deny it, but it's pretty easy to recognize.

MM: I do not understand why you are so convinced that I am being sarcastic. It saddens me. Nothing could be further from the truth. It indicates a lack of trust. Which also makes me sad. I wish you could believe me.

TE: Since you've brought up my appearing not to want to learn as a fellow Bible student, allow me to ask you a question. Have you learned anything from me? I've learned from you.

MM: Yes! Absolutely. The most important thing I have learned from studying with you is how Sister White viewed human probation, namely, that sinners and saints alike owe their temporal existence to the death of Jesus on the cross.

TV: I too wish this was simple but I can see no simple way to understand how I both could have a free choise while God at the same time would know exactly what I will not chose, at all time, forever.

MM: Thomas, God has already watched it play out, which is not the same as figuring it out before it happens. Again, He has already watched it happen. He simply reports what has happened, not what will happen. The fact God reports it to us before it happens is a matter of perspective. From God’s perspective it has already happened, but from our perspective it hasn’t happened yet.

JB: Does God have a choice?

MM: God cannot choose to not know the future like history. He is God, thus He cannot stop knowing the future like history. It’s not a problem, though. It’s why He can guarantee that “affliction shall not rise up the second time”. (Nahum 1:9) Such a promise is not hopeful thinking, or one of many possible outcomes. It’s the truth, a truth based on God’s divine ability to see "the" future ( as opposed to "a" future) with 20/20 hindsight.

There is no choise, for God there is no future, only history, in other words, there is no choise. God did not create choise. It is now a clear view. One I reject. There is choise, there is a future. Even for God.

Now that I know what this topic here is all about, I quoted the following post by Tom from the other topic with my own comments below the quoted section:


He can choose either A or B. Even though God knows what ultimate choice the person is going to make, the choice is still his' or her's to make. Freewill isn't affected at all. God doesn't decide the choice between A or B. The person decides the choice. God knows in advance what choice the person is going to freely decide to make. I don't know what's so hard to understand about that.