TE: I don't know a single person who has had that experience.

MM: That's the problem. True conversions are rare. Superficial conversions abound. Sister White addresses this problem in the following quotes. Each one of these quotes refutes the idea that rebirth and conversion is normal and plentiful.

EGW: With many, religious faith and principles are mingled with worldly customs and practices, and pure and undefiled religion is rare. {CT 478.1}

A character unsullied before God is rare. {4T 622.2}

Much of the faith which we see is merely nominal; the real, trusting, persevering faith is rare. {5T 651.3}

Holiness of life and character is a rare thing, but this the worker must have or he cannot yoke up with Christ. {FE 109.3}

The new birth is a rare experience in this age of the world. This is the reason why there are so many perplexities in the churches. Many, so many, who assume the name of Christ are unsanctified and unholy. They have been baptized, but they were buried alive. Self did not die, and therefore they did not rise to newness of life in Christ. {6BC 1075.7}

"The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul." Psalm 19:7. Without the law, men have no just conception of the purity and holiness of God or of their own guilt and uncleanness. They have no true conviction of sin and feel no need of repentance. Not seeing their lost condition as violators of God's law, they do not realize their need of the atoning blood of Christ. The hope of salvation is accepted without a radical change of heart or reformation of life. Thus superficial conversions abound, and multitudes are joined to the church who have never been united to Christ. {GC 468.2}

TE: I don't know a single person who has had that experience.

MM: That's the problem. True conversions are rare. Superficial conversions abound. Sister White addresses this problem in the following quotes. Each one of these quotes refutes the idea that rebirth and conversion is normal and plentiful.

EGW: With many, religious faith and principles are mingled with worldly customs and practices, and pure and undefiled religion is rare. {CT 478.1}

A character unsullied before God is rare. {4T 622.2}

Much of the faith which we see is merely nominal; the real, trusting, persevering faith is rare. {5T 651.3}

Holiness of life and character is a rare thing, but this the worker must have or he cannot yoke up with Christ. {FE 109.3}

The new birth is a rare experience in this age of the world. This is the reason why there are so many perplexities in the churches. Many, so many, who assume the name of Christ are unsanctified and unholy. They have been baptized, but they were buried alive. Self did not die, and therefore they did not rise to newness of life in Christ. {6BC 1075.7}

"The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul." Psalm 19:7. Without the law, men have no just conception of the purity and holiness of God or of their own guilt and uncleanness. They have no true conviction of sin and feel no need of repentance. Not seeing their lost condition as violators of God's law, they do not realize their need of the atoning blood of Christ. The hope of salvation is accepted without a radical change of heart or reformation of life. Thus superficial conversions abound, and multitudes are joined to the church who have never been united to Christ. {GC 468.2}

This really doesn't have anything to do with your theory. There's nothing here which says that a conversion cannot happen until God reveals every cultivated sinful habit since birth. Nothing. There's nothing like that anywhere, and there's no record of anyone who has had this experience upon conversion.

I mentioned the prodigal as an example of conversion. In his example we see the principles of conversion. A recognition of one's need for mercy. That's what God wants. A contrite heart He will not despise. The publican asked for mercy, and went away justified. Hallelujah! What a wonderful Savior! If we ask for mercy, we will find it too.

Tom, according to the theory you are espousing, rebirth is common and frequent experience. This view totally contradicts the following inspired insights:



A) Please quote where it says conversion is as common as you say it is. Where does it say people experience a "radical change of heart" while simultaneously retaining all manner of sinful habits, that is, cultivated defects and imperfections God is waiting to reveal until the time is right.

B) Also, which cultivated sinful habits are overlooked, reserved to be revealed later on, which trait of Christ's spotless character is hidden, in the following quote:

SC 29
One ray of the glory of God, one gleam of the purity of Christ, penetrating the soul,

[1] makes every spot of defilement painfully distinct,

[2] and lays bare the deformity and defects of the human character.

[3] It makes apparent the unhallowed desires,

[4] the infidelity of the heart,

[5] the impurity of the lips.

[6] The sinner's acts of disloyalty in making void the law of God,

[7] are exposed to his sight, and his spirit is stricken and afflicted under the searching influence of the Spirit of God.

[8] He loathes himself as he views the pure, spotless character of Christ. {SC 29.1}

Where do you get this from? You assert many things that, as far as I can tell, you just make up. You have no idea how frequent I think rebirth us. Please present some evidence for your assertion regarding how common I think the rebirth experience is.



What are you referring to? How common do I think conversion is? I'm sure you have no idea.

Anyway, you're going off on a tangent. My point is that nothing you have presented in any way supports your theory. There's nothing in inspiration which says that before a person can be born again that God must reveal every cultivated sinful habit. You yourself have admitted that there are exceptions to this, so even you don't believe it to be true. If it were a requirement, there wouldn't be any exceptions. Not only are there exceptions, there are no recorded episodes in history where this has happened. There simply isn't any evidence for this theory, but there is evidence against it, such as the publican I cited, and the exceptions you have already admitted to.

Here is evidence:

SC 29
One ray of the glory of God, one gleam of the purity of Christ, penetrating the soul,

[1] makes every spot of defilement painfully distinct,

[2] and lays bare the deformity and defects of the human character.

[3] It makes apparent the unhallowed desires,

[4] the infidelity of the heart,

[5] the impurity of the lips.

[6] The sinner's acts of disloyalty in making void the law of God,

[7] are exposed to his sight, and his spirit is stricken and afflicted under the searching influence of the Spirit of God.

[8] He loathes himself as he views the pure, spotless character of Christ. {SC 29.1}

Here is more evidence:

Transformation of heart means an entire change of the entire man. (TDG 48)

There is not a stain in the character because God is enthroned in the heart and Christ does not war against Christ. (1 S&T 246)

When we live by faith on the Son of God, the fruits of the Spirit will be seen in our lives; not one will be missing. (DA 676)

When a soul is truly converted, old habits and natural evil besetments are done away in Christ Jesus and all things become new. (TMK 247)

All righteous attributes of character dwell in God as a perfect, harmonious whole, and every one who receives Christ as a personal Saviour is privileged to possess these attributes. (COL 330)

Only the faultless will be there. None will be translated to heaven while their hearts are filled with the rubbish of earth. Every defect in the moral character must first be remedied, every stain removed by the cleansing blood of Christ, and all the unlovely, unlovable traits of character overcome. (Mar 58)

TE: If it were a requirement, there wouldn't be any exceptions.

MM: Does this apply to baptism and the theif on the cross?

TE: ... such as the publican I cited ...

MM: Where does it say the publican retained certain sinful cultivated habits? Are you assuming he was justified in his sins? Or, do you have evidence to prove it?

The following inspired insights describe the publican:

SC 29, 30
One ray of the glory of God, one gleam of the purity of Christ, penetrating the soul, makes every spot of defilement painfully distinct, and lays bare the deformity and defects of the human character. It makes apparent the unhallowed desires, the infidelity of the heart, the impurity of the lips. The sinner's acts of disloyalty in making void the law of God, are exposed to his sight, and his spirit is stricken and afflicted under the searching influence of the Spirit of God. He loathes himself as he views the pure, spotless character of Christ. {SC 29.1} ...

The poor publican who prayed, "God be merciful to me a sinner" (Luke 18:13), regarded himself as a very wicked man, and others looked upon him in the same light; but he felt his need, and with his burden of guilt and shame he came before God, asking for His mercy. His heart was open for the Spirit of God to do its gracious work and set him free from the power of sin. The Pharisee's boastful, self-righteous prayer showed that his heart was closed against the influence of the Holy Spirit. Because of his distance from God, he had no sense of his own defilement, in contrast with the perfection of the divine holiness. He felt no need, and he received nothing. {SC 30.2}

COL 151
The publican had gone to the temple with other worshipers, but he soon drew apart from them as unworthy to unite in their devotions. Standing afar off, he "would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast," in bitter anguish and self-abhorrence. He felt that he had transgressed against God, that he was sinful and polluted. He could not expect even pity from those around him, for they looked upon him with contempt. He knew that he had no merit to commend him to God, and in utter self-despair he cried, "God be merciful to me, a sinner." He did not compare himself with others. Overwhelmed with a sense of guilt, he stood as if alone in God's presence. His only desire was for pardon and peace, his only plea was the mercy of God. And he was blessed. "I tell you," Christ said, "this man went down to his house justified rather than the other." {COL 151.3}

The following quote describes the prerequisites for justification:

FW 100
But while God can be just, and yet justify the sinner through the merits of Christ, no man can cover his soul with the garments of Christ's righteousness while practicing known sins or neglecting known duties. God requires the entire surrender of the heart, before justification can take place; and in order for man to retain justification, there must be continual obedience, through active, living faith that works by love and purifies the soul. {FW 100.1}

None of the proposed evidence says anything remotely like what you are suggesting. Not a word that every sinful habit cultivated from birth must be revealed and confessed. Not a word about exceptions for smoking and polygamy.

Here's something from Waggoner:



Waggoner has the right idea. It is a revelation of Jesus Christ, not sinful habits cultivated since birth, which leads to conversion. This is the same thing Ellen White wrote. The revelation of Christ does indeed lead to things you presented as evidence, but the evidence is that of a changed heart and mind, a change direction in life; but nothing about every sinful habit cultivated since birth being revealed.

TE: If it were a requirement, there wouldn't be any exceptions.

MM: Does this apply to baptism and the theif on the cross?

This isn't a very accurately phrased question, but I think I know what you mean. You're actually asking if the exception regarding sinful habits being revealed applied to the thief on the cross, but you mentioned baptism, so I assume what you really mean is if the requirement that one be baptized before one can be converted applies to thief on the cross.

There is no such requirement. As circumcision was a sign of the righteousness the believer had in Christ by faith, so is baptism a sign of the righteousness one has by faith in Christ. The thief was born again by faith in Christ, the same as any other individual who has been born again.

By the way, at the time Christ died, baptism wasn't a requirement for anyone, even for those whose lives were not cut short. It's very odd that you mention it at all.

TE: ... such as the publican I cited ...

MM: Where does it say the publican retained certain sinful cultivated habits?

You have an theory of conversion that speaks little of Christ and much of cultivated sinful habits. But there's no record of the principles you are suggesting in any recorded conversion, nor in real life conversions that we encounter amongst our friends and so forth. You do not converted people? I'm not talking about over the internet, where one's character is difficult to ascertain, but in real life. Do you know any converted people whose experience is along the lines of what you are suggesting? I've not met one.

However there is a principle of conversion that I have noticed amongst those I've met, and that is the principle Waggoner brings out. There was a revelation of Christ. It is Christ who saves. By knowing Him, one's life is transformed.

Please bear in mind that in disagreeing with your particular idea of every sinful habit cultivated since birth being revealed, which is neither practical, nor expressed in inspiration, nor born out by actual experience, I am not denying that there is a wonderful transformation that takes place when one is converted. Here is a nice expression of conversion:

Quote:

How, then, are we to be saved? "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness," so the Son of man has been lifted up, and everyone who has been deceived and bitten by the serpent may look and live. "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." John 1:29. The light shining from the cross reveals the love of God. His love is drawing us to Himself. If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour. Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul. The thoughts and desires are brought into obedience to the will of Christ. The heart, the mind, are created anew in the image of Him who works in us to subdue all things to Himself. Then the law of God is written in the mind and heart, and we can say with Christ, "I delight to do Thy will, O my God." Ps. 40:8. (DA 175, 176)

Are you assuming he was justified in his sins? Or, do you have evidence to prove it?

[color:blue]I've said nothing of the sort. You should read more carefully!!

The following inspired insights describe the publican:

SC 29, 30
One ray of the glory of God, one gleam of the purity of Christ, penetrating the soul, makes every spot of defilement painfully distinct, and lays bare the deformity and defects of the human character. It makes apparent the unhallowed desires, the infidelity of the heart, the impurity of the lips. The sinner's acts of disloyalty in making void the law of God, are exposed to his sight, and his spirit is stricken and afflicted under the searching influence of the Spirit of God. He loathes himself as he views the pure, spotless character of Christ. {SC 29.1} ...

The poor publican who prayed, "God be merciful to me a sinner" (Luke 18:13), regarded himself as a very wicked man, and others looked upon him in the same light; but he felt his need, and with his burden of guilt and shame he came before God, asking for His mercy. His heart was open for the Spirit of God to do its gracious work and set him free from the power of sin. The Pharisee's boastful, self-righteous prayer showed that his heart was closed against the influence of the Holy Spirit. Because of his distance from God, he had no sense of his own defilement, in contrast with the perfection of the divine holiness. He felt no need, and he received nothing. {SC 30.2}

COL 151
The publican had gone to the temple with other worshipers, but he soon drew apart from them as unworthy to unite in their devotions. Standing afar off, he "would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast," in bitter anguish and self-abhorrence. He felt that he had transgressed against God, that he was sinful and polluted. He could not expect even pity from those around him, for they looked upon him with contempt. He knew that he had no merit to commend him to God, and in utter self-despair he cried, "God be merciful to me, a sinner." He did not compare himself with others. Overwhelmed with a sense of guilt, he stood as if alone in God's presence. His only desire was for pardon and peace, his only plea was the mercy of God. And he was blessed. "I tell you," Christ said, "this man went down to his house justified rather than the other." {COL 151.3}

The following quote describes the prerequisites for justification:

FW 100
But while God can be just, and yet justify the sinner through the merits of Christ, no man can cover his soul with the garments of Christ's righteousness while practicing known sins or neglecting known duties. God requires the entire surrender of the heart, before justification can take place; and in order for man to retain justification, there must be continual obedience, through active, living faith that works by love and purifies the soul. {FW 100.1}

Right! Ellen White has the right idea. Stick to this, rather than adding you own requirements, and you'll be in good shape!

TE: None of the proposed evidence says anything remotely like what you are suggesting.

MM: I disagree.

TE: It is a revelation of Jesus Christ, not sinful habits cultivated since birth, which leads to conversion.

MM: It’s both.

TE: If it were a requirement, there wouldn't be any exceptions.

MM: Does this apply to baptism and the thief on the cross?

TE: There is no such requirement. . . . By the way, at the time Christ died, baptism wasn't a requirement for anyone, even for those whose lives were not cut short. It's very odd that you mention it at all.

MM: I disagree. Jesus made baptism a prerequisite. It wasn’t optional. He made it a requirement before His death on the cross.

EV 306
Repentance, faith, and baptism are the requisite steps in conversion. {Ev 306.3}

SR 289
The descent of the Holy Ghost upon the Gentiles was not an equivalent for baptism. The requisite steps in conversion, in all cases, are faith, repentance, and baptism. {SR 289.2}

DA 171, 172
Raising His hand with solemn, quiet dignity, He pressed the truth home with greater assurance, "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." Nicodemus knew that Christ here referred to water baptism and the renewing of the heart by the Spirit of God. {DA 171.5}

TE: Do you know any converted people whose experience is along the lines of what you are suggesting? I've not met one.

MM: Yes, of course. But it doesn’t mean they never sin. It means they do not sin while they are complying with the conditions, namely, abiding in Jesus.

TE: Please bear in mind that in disagreeing with your particular idea of every sinful habit cultivated since birth being revealed, which is neither practical, nor expressed in inspiration, nor born out by actual experience, I am not denying that there is a wonderful transformation that takes place when one is converted.

MM: The view you are espousing comes short of the glory of God. It teaches that people are born again in need of rebirth, in need of confessing and crucifying sinful cultivated habits God chose not to reveal to them. The SC 29 quote refutes this view.