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Here is a link to show exactly where the Space Station is over earth right now: Click Here
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Re: Clarifying the contradiction
[Re: Tom]
#85397
02/13/07 08:09 PM
02/13/07 08:09 PM
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We know the piece of wood can't go in both directions, therefore, if it goes A, then it can't also go B.
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Re: Clarifying the contradiction
[Re: Daryl]
#85406
02/13/07 09:09 PM
02/13/07 09:09 PM
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OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Ok, let's assume it's a person going down a raft. The person can either go left or right. That doesn't change anything, does it?
a)If A must happen, then B can't happen. b)If B can't happen, then we can't do B. c)If A must happen, then we must be the case that we will do A.
Here A is "the person on the raft goes left" and B is "the person on the raft goes right."
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Clarifying the contradiction
[Re: Tom]
#85407
02/13/07 09:57 PM
02/13/07 09:57 PM
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Yes, it does, as a piece of wood can't decide whether to go to the left (A), or to the right B, however, a person on a raft has the freewill to decide to go A or to go B.
a) If this person on the raft decides to go A, then B can't happen, solely on the basis that the person on the raft has chosen to go A. The person on the raft can't do both A and B at the same time.
b) If the person on the raft chooses A, then B can't happen.
c) If the person on the raft chose A, then A must happen. And, yes, if the person on the raft chose A, then A is what the person on the raft will do.
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Re: Clarifying the contradiction
[Re: Daryl]
#85409
02/13/07 10:05 PM
02/13/07 10:05 PM
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Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
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Galatians 2 21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
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Re: Clarifying the contradiction
[Re: vastergotland]
#85411
02/13/07 10:11 PM
02/13/07 10:11 PM
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OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Let me try filling in things for A and B:
a)If the event that the person on the raft goes left must happen, then the event that the person on the raft goes right can't happen. b)If the event that the person on the raft goes right can't happen, then the person can't go to the right. c)If the event that the person on the raft goes left must happen, then it must be the case that the person on the raft goes left.
These statements are all true, aren't they?
Note:There's no need to bring in free will here or choice; they have nothing to do with these questions. Sure a person can influence the raft, but so what? These statements have nothing to do with *why* the raft goes one way or the other, just whether the conclusions from the given premises follow, none of which involve choice or free will.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Clarifying the contradiction
[Re: Tom]
#85412
02/13/07 10:15 PM
02/13/07 10:15 PM
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OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Hope so. Daryl is being responsive, which is nice.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Clarifying the contradiction
[Re: Tom]
#85419
02/14/07 02:37 AM
02/14/07 02:37 AM
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SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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a) If the event that the person on the raft goes left must happen, then the event that the person on the raft goes right can't happen. b) If the event that the person on the raft goes right can't happen, then the person can't go to the right. c) If the event that the person on the raft goes left must happen, then it must be the case that the person on the raft goes left. If something "must" happen or if something "cannot" happen, why, then, is it necessary to inquire about other options? The equation does not elicit questions regarding other options. But to answer your question - If, for whatever reason, "B" cannot happen, then "B" cannot happen. So what? What did we learn? Even a 4 year old child, like Thomas mentioned, can understand it.
Last edited by Mountain Man; 02/14/07 05:44 PM.
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Re: Clarifying the contradiction
[Re: Mountain Man]
#85425
02/14/07 05:16 AM
02/14/07 05:16 AM
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OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Yeah, MM. It's amazing that it takes so many posts to get agreement on such a simple thing to see.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Clarifying the contradiction
[Re: Tom]
#85428
02/14/07 03:18 PM
02/14/07 03:18 PM
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Tom,
Where are you going with all of this?
What is the bottom line?
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Re: Clarifying the contradiction
[Re: Daryl]
#85431
02/14/07 04:20 PM
02/14/07 04:20 PM
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OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Well get there Daryl. I'm trying to set a foundation.
Actually I thought of another step I could have introduced in between my previous post and the one before that. We've agreed that in the case of a piece of wood floating down a river that:
If the event that the wood will go left must happen, then the event that the wood will go right can't happen.
Now let's say, introducing people into the equation, that the people are lying on the wood, or raft, but not influencing it in any way. They are simply along for the ride. You would agree that the following would be true, right?
If the event that the wood (or raft) will go left must happen, then the event that the wood will go right can't happen.
Ok, now introduce the possibility of the person on the raft influencing the raft. I would maintain this doesn't change the veracity of the statement in the least. That is, the following is still true:
If the event that the wood (or raft) will go left must happen, then the event that the wood will go right can't happen.
If you will agree to these points, I can get to the bottom line. If you disagree, then I think it would be good to iron that out. At least we can find out what exactly it is that we are disagreeing about, which I think would be helpful.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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