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Clarifying the contradiction
#85364
02/13/07 03:01 AM
02/13/07 03:01 AM
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OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Assume there are two mutually exclusive events, A and B, one of which we can do, and one of which must happen (i.e. we will get up at 6:00 AM, or we won't).
a)If A must happen, then B can't happen. b)If B can't happen, then we can't do B. c)If A must happen, then we must be the case that we will do A.
I was sort of taking for granted these things, but it occurs to me, due to any lack of progress in getting my contradiction question answered, that maybe I shouldn't have. So I'd like to ask these clarifying questions, and see if we can get agreement on the above points.
Any disagreement on the above points?
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Clarifying the contradiction
[Re: Tom]
#85378
02/13/07 03:18 PM
02/13/07 03:18 PM
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The word "must" and "can't" are the problems.
There isn't any "must" or "can't" in freewill.
It, therefore, should be:
a) If I choose A, then B won't happen. b) If I choose B, then A won't happen.
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Re: Clarifying the contradiction
[Re: Daryl]
#85381
02/13/07 03:33 PM
02/13/07 03:33 PM
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OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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The questions I'm asking aren't dependent upon free will. What would your comments be on what I actually asked? Do you agree with the comments? Think of these things as being events which don't involve free will if you wish. You can replace "we" with an inanimate object. Really, free will doesn't impact what I'm asking in any way. There simply statements about English, to make sure we're understanding the same things by these words.
I'll rephrase the questions so they don't have "we" in them:
a)If it is the case that A will happen, then B can't happen. b)If B can't happen, then it is not possible for some entity do B. c)If A must happen, then it must be the case that the entity involved will do A.
The entity spoken of here, can be an inanimate object. Do you agree with these statements? If not, why not? If the entity involved has free will, do you see that any of these statements becomes logically false?
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Clarifying the contradiction
[Re: Tom]
#85383
02/13/07 03:42 PM
02/13/07 03:42 PM
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Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
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Tom, how would you explain this to a 4 year old?
Galatians 2 21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
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Re: Clarifying the contradiction
[Re: vastergotland]
#85384
02/13/07 04:05 PM
02/13/07 04:05 PM
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OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Clarifying the contradiction
[Re: Tom]
#85385
02/13/07 04:12 PM
02/13/07 04:12 PM
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Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
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That should be enough for us grownups aswell, dont you think?
Galatians 2 21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
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Re: Clarifying the contradiction
[Re: vastergotland]
#85387
02/13/07 04:37 PM
02/13/07 04:37 PM
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In the case of an inanimate object, such as a rock, if I let go a rock from my hand, then the rock must fall from cause and effect. The rock doesn't have any choice in the matter.
The same goes for a person. If you are thrown out of an airplane, you will fall to the ground, again from cause and effect. You also do not have any choice in the matter.
In both cases, if A is the fallen object, be it a rock or a person, then B can't happen, B being that the rock or the person doesn't fall to the ground.
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Re: Clarifying the contradiction
[Re: Daryl]
#85389
02/13/07 05:07 PM
02/13/07 05:07 PM
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OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Daryl, is there some reason you cannot respond to what I'm actually asking?
a)If it is the case that A will happen, then B can't happen. b)If B can't happen, then it is not possible for some entity do B. c)If A must happen, then it must be the case that the entity involved will do A.
These are straightforward statements, which have nothing to do with free will or foreknowledge. Do you disagree with any of these statements? (again, A and B are mutually exclusive events)
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Clarifying the contradiction
[Re: Tom]
#85392
02/13/07 06:05 PM
02/13/07 06:05 PM
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Using my rock example, a falling rock will fall towards the ground (A). It can't fall towards the sky (B).
In this example, I agree with your a,b, and c list.
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Re: Clarifying the contradiction
[Re: Daryl]
#85395
02/13/07 07:52 PM
02/13/07 07:52 PM
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OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Thank you for your response.
Ok, let's use an inanimate object that can do one of two things, one of which is possible, and the other possible as well. For example, a piece of wood is going down a river which forks. The wood will go to the left or to the right. Would you agree that
a)If it is the case that A will happen, then B can't happen. b)If B can't happen, then it is not possible for some entity do B. c)If A must happen, then it must be the case that the entity involved will do A.
where A is the event that the wood will go to the left and B is the event that the wood will go to the right?
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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