That won't happen for the reason that God knows what choice the person will make.

Daryl, were you answering me or Thomas?



Assuming it's me, are you saying that the wood must go left because God has foreknown that that will happen?

I was answering Thomas' post.

Before answering your last few posts, I will need to read them again.

Ok. Thanks for your contributions.

But doesnt MM here say that what is unknown (to us) is still open even though it may be known to God?

MM: Since God knows it will happen at noon, then it will happen according to His divine foreknowledge. However, the word "can't" in your equation is misleading. I think the word "will not" is more appropriate. The word "cannot" implies it lacks the ability or freedom to go right, which may or may not be true. The only reason we can know in advance that it will go left is because God already watched it happen and told us. Otherwise, we would have no way of knowing if will go right or left, assuming both are physically possible.

So, what are you really saying here? Obviously that we should not use "cannot" because that is too strickt, tending towards only one option being in existence. And if God has not told us what will happen, we have no idea what it is (if there are indeed more than one possible option).
But at the same time you are also saying that since God knows that the raft will go left, the rafter *will* not choose to go right? Is that right? So was there ever a possibility that the raft would go right? Not if it could go, because it obviously *can*, be if it would go?
I still do not understand how this choise exist in more than the purely theoretical level. It is a theoretical choise because the river is forked and both streams are sailable. But it seems that the moment God forsaw what would happen, and God has always known so the knowledge of what river fork the raft will take is as old as God, then the choise has never been a practical one. It is a choise which can be discussed like we are doing here, but it is not a choise which could acctually happen were the scenario to be played out. Becouse if it was a choise which could acctually happen in the real world, then we would have a 50% chance (statistically speaking) of the rafter acctually choosing the river fork that God has not forseen, but that you have told me will not happen. And something that will not happen is not an option for a choise.
So, until the choise is to be made, everyone can speculate all one wants about what it will be, but once the moment comes when the choise must be made, there remains only one option, the one which God has known will be made. Was there ever really more than one choise?

TE: If God knows it will go left, is it possible for it to go right? That's the question. "Can't" means "not possible" as I'm using it.

MM: I still like the word “will not” better than “cannot”. So, again, since God knows it will go left, it will not go right.

TE: Whether we know what will happen isn't important to this discussion, is it?

MM: To me it is.

TE: (By the way, we do know things about the future which are not things which God has told us. That is, God's revelation to us is not our only source of knowledge about the future. But this is a side issue.)

MM: Regarding inanimate things, yes. But regarding FMAs, no.

………………..

TV: But at the same time you are also saying that since God knows that the raft will go left, the rafter *will* not choose to go right? Is that right? So was there ever a possibility that the raft would go right? Not if it could go, because it obviously *can*, be if it would go?

MM: God knows the rafter will go right simply because, from His hindsight perspective, that is exactly what happened. But from the rafters perspective it hasn’t happened yet, so his options are left or right, not in theory, but in reality.

God’s knowledge of it has nothing to do with it, unless, of course, He tells him ahead of time. But even then his options are two. Just because God knows what he will do, it doesn’t mean the rafter only has one option. He still has to choose, from both options, to do the one God knows the rafter will do.

But if he has two options in reality and not only in theory, then by nessessity we must agree that he could do something different than what God has seen on the rerun TV. Only if he CAN do something different than what God has seen does he have a real choise, rather than merely a theoretical one.

Yes, using your words, if God says it "must" happen at noon, then it "must" happen at noon.

If at eleven o'clock, God foreknows that at noon the event that the wood will go left will occur, it will happen?

TV: But if he has two options in reality and not only in theory, then by nessessity we must agree that he could do something different than what God has seen on the rerun TV. Only if he CAN do something different than what God has seen does he have a real choise, rather than merely a theoretical one.

MM: If God were merely a created being, like you or me, then I would agree with you. But since He is God I cannot believe His ability to know the future robs us of our real ability and freedom to choose.

So then we must conclude that God is compleately incomprehensible to us.