Bro Thomas,

You've touched on a fundamental question. Is the universe such that there are some aspects of it of which God is ignorant? IOW, is there such as thing that is not knowable to God?

I suppose it depends upon how you define "knowable". This is one of the questions that comes up regarding the open view of the future. I maintain that God knows the future perfectly, but the future is open, not fixed. Therefore God knows it as open, meaning that He knows every possible thing that can happen. I would say this is knowing. There are some who say "No, no. If God does not know exactly what will happen, that means He's not omniscient." But I think this is just a matter of misunderstanding the nature of the future.

This example could be applied to other areas. (i.e., it depends on how one defines "knowable").

Anyway, my answer would be no, there's nothing of which God is ignorant.

Another interesting and related question is if it's possible for God to learn.

Can you learn something if you already know everything?

TE: B is an issue because the whole question is if it's possible for one to do B. That's the question that started the whole thing! If we define free will as the ability to do A or B, then B is most assuredly an issue.

TE: You might not have noticed this, by *my* point (and I'm the one who started the topic!) is in regards to free will, not God's foreknowledge (at least, not directly; it *is* directly concerned with free will).

TE: Well, this is the question. If God knows that A will happen and not B, is B doable?

MM: “B” was doable before the fact, but not after the fact.

TE: Before what fact?

MM: Before the person did it.

TE: God's seeing it?

MM: No. Before the person did it.

TE: There is no before that!

MM: From our perspective there is.

TE: God has always known that A will happen …

MM: True. But why? I believe it’s because God “inhabits eternity”. In other words, He can look back on the future like watching a rerun. From His perspective it has already happened. Thus, perfect foreknowledge is based on perfect hindsight, which is more than saying God is pretty good at estimating what might happen in the future, and getting it right most of the time. By the way, the view you have been postulating disallows God knowing with absolute certainty that “A” will happen. Or, did I misunderstand it?

TE: … so there was never a time when B was doable.

MM: How can you be so sure? Does the view you espouse allow you to believe God knows the future with absolute certainty?

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TE: That is, even if you asked God Himself what would happen to a certain particle, He would say, "Well there's an x% chance it will do A, a y% chance it will do B" and so forth.

MM: I disagree. God is not simply a super-gifted statistician. He’s not just another great guesser. God is omniscient. He knows everything. Again, unconditional prophecy is positive proof. The Revelation is not a compilation of great guess work, of what God thinks is most likely going to happen in the future. No way. Instead, it accurately describes precisely what will happen. No doubt about it. There is no possibility that things will play out differently, not even in the least detail. From atoms to ants to mankind, God knows exactly how and what everything will do in the future.

TE: You're free to disagree with quantum physics, but I was just making a comment about the physics.

MM: The part I am disagreeing with is – “if you asked God Himself what would happen”. You brought God into the picture in way that made it seem to me you think not even God can know the future behavior of “particles” with absolute certainty. By “absolute certainty” I mean there is no doubt in His mind what will happen, that is, He knows exactly, precisely what will happen. He doesn’t have to guess or wonder which possible outcome is most likely to occur. Do you agree?

Thomas:Can you learn something if you already know everything?

Tom:Possibly, if new things can be learned in the future.

Regarding the particles, God does know the behavior of the particles with absolute certainty; they will act exactly as designed. With probability x, they will do A; with probability y, they will do B, and so forth. That's how they were made! (That's the theory, at any rate).

Regarding the other points, it appears that you are suggesting that there whether A or B is possible depends upon one's perspective. From our perspective, either is possible, because we are ignorant. From God's perspective, only A is possible, because He really knows what will happen (thanks to His T.V. re-run ability).

So according to this idea, isn't it clear that B is not really doable? Ignorant beings can *think* it's doable, because of their ignorance, but they're wrong. God, who is not ignorant, knows the truth, which is that B is not doable.

Merely thinking a thing is doable doesn't make it doable. That seems to be what you're suggesting.

This requires a less than absolute definition of "everything".

JB: Prophecy is not evidence that [God] knows [the future] like [a rerun].

MM: On this we disagree.

JB: Are you saying that the way we know the future, is the way God knows the future?

MM: Not at all. The reason Esau and Cyrus knew their future is because God revealed it. That’s how they knew what would happen.

JB: In your mind it seems that hope translates to doubt since you said: "God does not doubt...or wonder or question". Those are not activities of hope. Faith is the opposite of doubt, and hope is the opposite of despair. You seem to think that hope and doubt are harmonious and faith and despair go together. To think that doubt, wonder, and question are the activities of hope is indeed a twist.

MM: Another nice twist - a double twist. But it doesn’t represent what I believe. The word “hope” has many meanings. Hopefully we can agree on this. Sometimes “hope” implies knowing it will eventually happen. (A) “I hope it happens sooner than later.” But sometimes “hope” implies not knowing whether it will happen at all. (B) “I hope it happens.” Neither “A” nor “B” applies to God.

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TE: "I have purposed it, I will also do it." This is an explanation of how God can know what's going to happen in the future.

MM: This only applies to God’s future behavior. He is simply saying what He will do. It doesn’t address what FMAs will do.

TE: [A] Therefore God knows [the future] as open, meaning that He knows every possible thing that can happen. I would say this is knowing. [B] Anyway, my answer would be no, there's nothing of which God is ignorant.

MM: “A” and “B” above are not compatible. According to this theory God doesn’t know ahead of time exactly what will happen. Knowing a zillion possible outcomes only means God is the ultimate smartest guesser.

…………………………

TE: Another interesting and related question is if it's possible for God to learn.

TV: Can you learn something if you already know everything?

MM: There isn’t anything God doesn’t know. Thus, He cannot learn something He doesn’t already know.

TE: Regarding the particles, God does know the behavior of the particles with absolute certainty; they will act exactly as designed. With probability x, they will do A; with probability y, they will do B, and so forth. That's how they were made! (That's the theory, at any rate).

MM: Thank you for clarifying it.

TE: Regarding the other points, it appears that you are suggesting that there whether A or B is possible depends upon one's perspective. From our perspective, either is possible, because we are ignorant. From God's perspective, only A is possible, because He really knows what will happen (thanks to His T.V. re-run ability).

MM: Correct.

TE: So according to this idea, isn't it clear that B is not really doable? Ignorant beings can *think* it's doable, because of their ignorance, but they're wrong. God, who is not ignorant, knows the truth, which is that B is not doable. Merely thinking a thing is doable doesn't make it doable. That seems to be what you're suggesting.

MM: God knows “B” will not happen simply because from His perspective it didn’t happen. But from our perspective it hasn’t happened yet, so our options are many, not in theory, but in reality. God’s knowledge of it has nothing to do with us, unless, of course, He tells us ahead of time. But even then our options are many. Just because God knows what we will do, it doesn’t mean our options are only one. We still have to choose, out of many options, to do the one God knows we will do.

Does this make sense to anyone besides MM? Especially I'm interested if anyone thinks the following statement makes sense, "But from our perspective it hasn’t happened yet, so our options are many, not in theory, but in reality."


(To me it seems obvious that God's perspective accurately reflects reality, and if we think something differently than God does -- e.g. we can do B, whereas it is God's opinion that we can't -- then God is simply right and we're wrong.)