If the person on the raft influences the raft to go left, then, unless they fail to influence the raft to go left, then left must happen. If left does happen, then right can't happen.

Again, "B" is not an issue if only "A" can happen. We can talk about "B thru Z" until the cows come home but to what purpose?

That's not what I'm asking. Since the post is on another page, for you're convenience I'll repost a portion of it.

If the event that the wood will go left must happen, then the event that the wood will go right can't happen (This has been agreed to).

Now let's say, introducing people into the equation, that the people are lying on the wood, or raft, but not influencing it in any way. They are simply along for the ride. You would agree that the following would be true, right?

If the event that the wood (or raft) will go left must happen, then the event that the wood will go right can't happen.

Ok, now introduce the possibility of the person on the raft influencing the raft. I would maintain this doesn't change the veracity of the statement in the least. That is, the following is still true:

If the event that the wood (or raft) will go left must happen, then the event that the wood will go right can't happen.

If you will agree to these points, I can get to the bottom line. If you disagree, then I think it would be good to iron that out. At least we can find out what exactly it is that we are disagreeing about, which I think would be helpful.

B is an issue if we define free will such that one can do either of A or B.

But we're not doing that yet, right? That is, "B" is not possible at this point.

In the way you are expressing it so far, and with what I also said in mind, I am in agreement.

I'm speaking as of the time that one is going to make a choice, so B is possible at this time.

Ok, we've agreed on the following:



No we get to the fun stuff. If God foreknows that the event that the wood will go left must happen, must it happen? We'll put a time on it. Let's say, the event will occur at noon. If at eleven O'clock, God foreknows that at noon the event that the wood will go left will occur, is it certain that this will happen? (as of eleven O'clock).

(Please not I'm not asking if God's foreknowing the event will happen causes the event to happen, or forces it is. I'm only asking if it is true that if God foreknows at eleven O'clock that the even will happen at noon, then the event will happen as God foreknew it.)

TE: I'm speaking as of the time that one is going to make a choice, so B is possible at this time.

MM: That's not what I agreed to.

TE: I'm only asking if it is true that if God foreknows at eleven O'clock that the even will happen at noon, then the event will happen as God foreknew it.

MM: Since God knows it will happen at noon, then it will happen according to His divine foreknowledge. However, the word "can't" in your equation is misleading. I think the word "will not" is more appropriate. The word "cannot" implies it lacks the ability or freedom to go right, which may or may not be true. The only reason we can know in advance that it will go left is because God already watched it happen and told us. Otherwise, we would have no way of knowing if will go right or left, assuming both are physically possible.

TE: I'm only asking if it is true that if God foreknows at eleven O'clock that the even will happen at noon, then the event will happen as God foreknew it.

MM: Since God knows it will happen at noon, then it will happen according to His divine foreknowledge. However, the word "can't" in your equation is misleading. I think the word "will not" is more appropriate. The word "cannot" implies it lacks the ability or freedom to go right, which may or may not be true. The only reason we can know in advance that it will go left is because God already watched it happen and told us. Otherwise, we would have no way of knowing if will go right or left, assuming both are physically possible.

If God knows it will go left, is it possible for it to go right? That's the question. "Can't" means "not possible" as I'm using it.

Whether we know what will happen isn't important to this discussion, is it? (By the way, we do know things about the future which are not things which God has told us. That is, God's revelation to us is not our only source of knowledge about the future. But this is a side issue.)

So, if God at 11 AM knows that at noon, the raft will go left, but does not tell the rafter, then the rafter might still be able to take the raft to the right. What happens if the rafter indeed makes the decision to take the raft to the right (becourse he is unaware of God knowing he will take it to the left?). Will the raft then go to the right as the rafter has decided to do, or will the raft go left as God has forseen it will do?