TE: If God knows it will go left, is it possible for it to go right? That's the question. "Can't" means "not possible" as I'm using it.

MM: I still like the word “will not” better than “cannot”. So, again, since God knows it will go left, it will not go right.

It is not possible for it to go right. That's the point.

TE: Whether we know what will happen isn't important to this discussion, is it?

MM: To me it is.

You're discussing something else then. Unless what we know somehow affects what happens.

TE: (By the way, we do know things about the future which are not things which God has told us. That is, God's revelation to us is not our only source of knowledge about the future. But this is a side issue.)

MM: Regarding inanimate things, yes. But regarding FMAs, no.

I don't know what you're saying here. What I'm pointing out is that we make deductions about the future which have nothing to do with what God has revealed. For example, if I say something, I know my wife will respond in a certain way.

………………..

TV: But at the same time you are also saying that since God knows that the raft will go left, the rafter *will* not choose to go right? Is that right? So was there ever a possibility that the raft would go right? Not if it could go, because it obviously *can*, be if it would go?

MM: God knows the rafter will go right simply because, from His hindsight perspective, that is exactly what happened. But from the rafters perspective it hasn’t happened yet, so his options are left or right, not in theory, but in reality.

This doesn't make sense. He cannot in reality go left. His perspective is simply wrong. God's perspective is right.

God’s knowledge of it has nothing to do with it, unless, of course, He tells him ahead of time. But even then his options are two. Just because God knows what he will do, it doesn’t mean the rafter only has one option. He still has to choose, from both options, to do the one God knows the rafter will do.

He obviously can't actually do other than the option which God has seen he will do. So he, in reality, only has one option.

Well, Tom, I responded and agreed to your scenario so far, therefore, what's next?

We can get to the argument I had in mind from the beginning.

1)If God knows that A will happen, then A will happen.
2)If only A can happen, then B cannot happen.
3)Therefore we do not have free will, if free will is defined as our having the ability to do either of A or B.

As pointed out in the other thread, if we defined free will differently, for example, as the ability to do that which one wishes to do, it is possible to affirm that God knows that A will happen, and that we have free will.

The reason for this thread was that I started out with 2) and 3) on the other thread, and was unable to get agreement on that, even though it's self evident. Now one may wish to discuss whether God's foreknowledge of an event necessitates its occurring, but that can be no doubt that if only A can happen (for whatever reason), then a person can do nothing to bring about B.

TE: If God knows it will go left, is it possible for it to go right? That's the question. "Can't" means "not possible" as I'm using it.

MM: I still like the word “will not” better than “cannot”. So, again, since God knows it will go left, it will not go right.

TE: It is not possible for it to go right. That's the point.

MM: Neither do I like the word “possible”. It implies it lacks the ability or freedom to choose.

………………………

TE: Whether we know what will happen isn't important to this discussion, is it?

MM: To me it is.

TE: You're discussing something else then. Unless what we know somehow affects what happens.

MM: If we know it because God told us then it does matter. It matters a lot.

………………………….

TE: (By the way, we do know things about the future which are not things which God has told us. That is, God's revelation to us is not our only source of knowledge about the future. But this is a side issue.)

MM: Regarding inanimate things, yes. But regarding FMAs, no.

TE: I don't know what you're saying here. What I'm pointing out is that we make deductions about the future which have nothing to do with what God has revealed. For example, if I say something, I know my wife will respond in a certain way.

MM: There is no comparison between what you think might happen and what God knows has happened.

………………..

TV: But at the same time you are also saying that since God knows that the raft will go left, the rafter *will* not choose to go right? Is that right? So was there ever a possibility that the raft would go right? Not if it could go, because it obviously *can*, be if it would go?

MM: God knows the rafter will go right simply because, from His hindsight perspective, that is exactly what happened. But from the rafters perspective it hasn’t happened yet, so his options are left or right, not in theory, but in reality.

TE: This doesn't make sense. He cannot in reality go left. His perspective is simply wrong. God's perspective is right.

MM: It depends on if God told the rafter in advance which way he will go. True, he will not in reality “go” left. Not because he lacks the ability or freedom do so, but because in obedience to God he chooses to go right. Nevertheless, his “options” are left or right.

…………………………….

MM: God’s knowledge of it has nothing to do with it, unless, of course, He tells him ahead of time. But even then his options are two. Just because God knows what he will do, it doesn’t mean the rafter only has one option. He still has to choose, from both options, to do the one God knows the rafter will do.

TE: He obviously can't actually do other than the option which God has seen he will do. So he, in reality, only has one option.

MM: Again, it depends on if God tells the rafter in advance which direction he will go. Even if God tells him he still has the option to not go that way. But he will not choose the other option because he loves God.

And if he is a rebell at heart, who would make a point out of going left if he had any inkling of a hunch that God wanted or knew that he would go right? Will he still go right in obedience to God even if his deepest desire is to do the oppostie of whatever God is involved in?

Or clearer yet, would take the raft to shore and start running upstream on the beach just because Gods option included one of the streams down..

TE: If God knows it will go left, is it possible for it to go right? That's the question. "Can't" means "not possible" as I'm using it.

MM: I still like the word “will not” better than “cannot”. So, again, since God knows it will go left, it will not go right.

TE: It is not possible for it to go right. That's the point.

MM: Neither do I like the word “possible”. It implies it lacks the ability or freedom to choose.

You can't choose to do something which won't happen, if choose means the freedom or ability to actually do the thing chosen.

………………………

TE: Whether we know what will happen isn't important to this discussion, is it?

MM: To me it is.

TE: You're discussing something else then. Unless what we know somehow affects what happens.

MM: If we know it because God told us then it does matter. It matters a lot.

Not do any argument I've been making, it doesn't. My argument has been very simple.

1.If God knows that A will happen, then A will happen, and not B.
2.If A will happen, then we cannot (or will not, whatever) do B.
3.Therefore "free will," under this scenario, cannot be logically defined as the ability to do B.

Now whether or not we know A or B will happen, doesn't change anything. The important point is that we do not have the ability to do B, because it is not in our power to bring about something which will not or cannot happen. What we know about A or B doesn't alter our ability to do B.

………………………….

TE: (By the way, we do know things about the future which are not things which God has told us. That is, God's revelation to us is not our only source of knowledge about the future. But this is a side issue.)

MM: Regarding inanimate things, yes. But regarding FMAs, no.

TE: I don't know what you're saying here. What I'm pointing out is that we make deductions about the future which have nothing to do with what God has revealed. For example, if I say something, I know my wife will respond in a certain way.

MM: There is no comparison between what you think might happen and what God knows has happened.

I was pointing out your statement was wrong, that we cannot know anything about the future unless God reveals it to us.

………………..

TV: But at the same time you are also saying that since God knows that the raft will go left, the rafter *will* not choose to go right? Is that right? So was there ever a possibility that the raft would go right? Not if it could go, because it obviously *can*, be if it would go?

MM: God knows the rafter will go right simply because, from His hindsight perspective, that is exactly what happened. But from the rafters perspective it hasn’t happened yet, so his options are left or right, not in theory, but in reality.

TE: This doesn't make sense. He cannot in reality go left. His perspective is simply wrong. God's perspective is right.

MM: It depends on if God told the rafter in advance which way he will go.

No, it doesn't. Regardless of what God did or did not tell him, if his perspective is that the raft can go left, it's wrong if God's perspective is that the raft can only go right. God's perspective is right.

True, he will not in reality “go” left. Not because he lacks the ability or freedom do so, but because in obedience to God he chooses to go right. Nevertheless, his “options” are left or right.

"Options" in quotes are a good idea, since he only has one option, and the freedom or ability to do one thing, which is precisely what God has foreseen, of course. He can't possibly do something different than what God has foreseen, right?

…………………………….

MM: God’s knowledge of it has nothing to do with it, unless, of course, He tells him ahead of time. But even then his options are two. Just because God knows what he will do, it doesn’t mean the rafter only has one option. He still has to choose, from both options, to do the one God knows the rafter will do.

TE: He obviously can't actually do other than the option which God has seen he will do. So he, in reality, only has one option.

MM: Again, it depends on if God tells the rafter in advance which direction he will go. Even if God tells him he still has the option to not go that way. But he will not choose the other option because he loves God.

It doesn't depend upon what God says at all.

I'd be really curious if anyone agree with this idea of yours as well as the other one. Did anyone ever answer that?

I wonder what God thinks about this discussion.

If I were God, I wouldn't be very impressed.

The irony about this though is that God knew beforehand that we would be having this discussion here.

Tom, like Daryl, I am tempted to give up. You believe God knows all of the possible outcomes of any given scenario. You do not believe God knows exactly how it will play out. I believe He does.

I've only been wanting to point out one thing, which I think is very easy to see. That is, if we believe the future is such that only one thing can/will happen (A, not B), then our definition of free will should reflect this fact.

God's foreknowledge doesn't affect any person's freedom of choice.

God's foreknowledge of the choice any person will make doesn't affect any person's freedom of choice.