I believe that "the Holy Spirit, through a revelation of Jesus, saves us to a father-child relationship with God, saves us so that we can be like Jesus, so that we can mature in the fruits of the Spirit." (Note that someone who is mature in the fruits of the Spirit cannot at the same time be mature in the fruits of sin)Thomas: The day we become aware of the Holy Spirits work on us.

I dont know what you would say to this one if it is different than what I wrote.Thomas: The day when we surrender at the foot of the cross and declare Jesus our Lord and Saviour.

I suspect you would answere something like 'the day we no longer sin'.Thomas: Rebirth happens when we, at the foot of the cross, believe Gods promise.

I suspect that you again would say that this happens when we no longer sin, in other words, fullfill the law perfectly... Thomas: Not sure.Thomas: Considering that this verse stands in the context of the ressurection... And that with verses such as 22:For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive... We can speculate on this, but we can never put any numbers on it.

Den, you seem to have difficulty understanding what I'm saying (for which I may be at fault; I'm not blaming you here, just making an observation) So rather than respond directly to your post, let me ask, what do you think I'm trying to say? There's only 4 pages in this thread, so please take the time to read what I've posted here. Also please read what John has written, because I agree completely with John. Then please summarize what you think MM is saying and what we are saying, and I'll jump back in.

Thanks!

1. When do we begin the "patient, protracted process" (DA 172) of conversion?

At birth.

2. When do we complete the "patient, protracted process" of conversion?

At death. (conversion, like sanctification, is the work of a life time; we don't stop being converted when we first give ourselves to Christ.)

3. When do we experience the miracle of rebirth in relation to completing the "patient, protracted process" of conversion?

When we believe.

4. Does God wait until after we are born again to reveal to us certain sinful habits? If so, why?

According to you, yes, He waits for smoking, polygamy, and drinking(?) (was Luther lost?). I don't think you know why. Your answer is good enough for me, although I think your list is short.

5. What do "I die daily" (1 Cor 15:31) and "stay converted" (OHC 215) mean in light of completing the process of conversion and walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man as a born again believer?

The same thing they mean when one first accepts Christ.

6. Is true, genuine conversion and rebirth common or "rare" (6BC 1075) among people professing to be Christians? If not, why not?

The first part depends upon the definitions involved. The second part (the "why not") is because of unbelief.

Tom, Are you stating that true christian conversion can never be spoken of in past tense but only ever in present tense? Should for instance Enoch walking with God be descibed as a 365 year old conversion experience?

Thomas:Tom, Are you stating that true christian conversion can never be spoken of in past tense but only ever in present tense?

No, I'm not saying this, which should be evident since I spoke of my own conversion.

Should for instance Enoch walking with God be descibed as a 365 year old conversion experience?

I'm reacting to MM's idea that God reveals to us all of our sinful habits before we are converted. Conversion, as he conceives of it, is sanctification. Sanctification is the process of a life time. I'm arguing against the idea that God keeps revealing sinful habits until there's no more left, and then we're "converted."

DB: One side assumes that by revealing and removing sin, they mean that one does it by his/her own power and excluding God out of the picture. One poster called it "self-righteous". This assumption is made despite the explicit commentary about accomplishing this by the power of God and His indwelling in us.

MM: Den, who is advocating this idea?

MM: Thomas, again, it sounds like you agree with me, that is, that the Holy Spirit, through a revelation of the law and love of God, saves us from our sinful habits, saves us so that we can be like Jesus, so that we can mature in the fruits of the Spirit. The passages you quoted indicate you believe it.

TV: I believe that "the Holy Spirit, through a revelation of Jesus, saves us to a father-child relationship with God, saves us so that we can be like Jesus, so that we can mature in the fruits of the Spirit." (Note that someone who is mature in the fruits of the Spirit cannot at the same time be mature in the fruits of sin)

MM: The difference between my description and yours is you exclude the law and sinful habits. But it appears that both are implied because you qualify your description by adding being mature in the fruits of the Spirit means sinful habits do not exist. Or, did I misunderstand your addendum?

1. When do we begin the "patient, protracted process" (DA 172) of conversion?

Thomas: The day we become aware of the Holy Spirits work on us. I dont know what you would say to this one if it is different than what I wrote.

MM: I agree, but I would also add that it includes confessing, in light of the cross, our sinful habits as the Holy Spirit reveals them to us. Just being aware of the fact the Holy Spirit has been working on us from birth isn’t enough. That’s true of everyone, that is, the Holy Spirit has been working on everyone since their birth.

2. When do we complete the "patient, protracted process" of conversion?

Thomas: The day when we surrender at the foot of the cross and declare Jesus our Lord and Saviour. I suspect you would answere something like 'the day we no longer sin'.

MM: I agree with you, but I would hasten to add it also involves crucifying our old man habits of sin. “Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin.” (Rom 6:6, 7) This is not the same thing as saying “the day we no longer sin”.

Paul explains how the old man dies and the new man replaces it. “That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; and be renewed in the spirit of your mind; and that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.” (Eph 4:22-24)

3. When do we experience the miracle of rebirth in relation to completing the "patient, protracted process" of conversion?

Thomas: Rebirth happens when we, at the foot of the cross, believe Gods promise. I suspect that you again would say that this happens when we no longer sin, in other words, fullfill the law perfectly...

MM: I agree rebirth occurs when we complete the “patient, protracted process” of conversion. However, this is not the same things as saying “we no longer sin … fulfill the law perfectly.” There are conditions to the promise, “Go, and sin no more.” Not only must we 1) complete the process of conversion and 2) experience rebirth, we must also 3) abide in Jesus - daily, continually, moment by moment - in order to fulfill the command, “Go, and sin no more.” Again, the conditional promise is – “Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not.” (1 John 3:6)

4. Does God wait until after we are born again to reveal to us certain sinful habits? If so, why?

Thomas: Not sure.

MM: Fair enough. It's a question I believe each person should seek diligently to answer.

5. What do "I die daily" (1 Cor 15:31) and "stay converted" (OHC 215) mean in light of completing the process of conversion and walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man as a born again believer?

Thomas: Considering that this verse stands in the context of the ressurection... And that with verses such as 22:For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive...

MM: Amen! Paul makes this point in Romans, too, in the context of crucifying our old man habits of sin. Thus, “I die daily” and “stay converted” mean, to me, that we choose moment by moment to abide in Jesus, the results of which are described above, namely, we are able to “go, and sin no more.” Which is also a conditional promise. The condition is – abide in Jesus. We cannot “go, and sin no more” if we are not abiding in Jesus.

Romans
6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also [in the likeness] of [his] resurrection:

TE: I'm reacting to MM's idea that God reveals to us all of our sinful habits before we are converted. Conversion, as he conceives of it, is sanctification. Sanctification is the process of a life time. I'm arguing against the idea that God keeps revealing sinful habits until there's no more left, and then we're "converted."

MM: Actually, Tom, I believe the processes of conversion and sanctification are two different processes. We embark upon the process of sanctification the moment we complete the process of conversion, the instant we are born again and begin abiding in Jesus.

Sanctification is what Jesus accomplishes in and through us on earth. It has nothing to do with sinning and repenting and forgiveness (justification accommodates these aspects of salvation).

Sanctification is the process of growing intellectually and maturing morally. We are born again sanctified and fully justified. We obtain justification by faith, and we maintain it through faith that works by love and purifies the soul. “Sanctification is the work of a lifetime.” (COL 65)

Although we are justified and sanctified the moment we are born again, the actual process of sanctification continues throughout eternity. While in heaven, we will continue to grow more and more like Christ. This “work of progression will not cease, but will continue throughout eternity.” (HP 186)

“'The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.' Through obedience comes sanctification of body, soul, and spirit. This sanctification is a progressive work, and an advance from one stage of perfection to another." (ML 250) Not an advance from greater sins to lesser sins until we are from sin, which is what I perceive you believe. Please correct me if I have misunderstood you.

“Sanctification is a state of holiness, without and within, being holy and without reserve the Lord’s, not in form, but in truth. Every impurity of thought, every lustful passion, separates the soul from God; for Christ can never put His robe of righteousness upon a sinner, to hide his deformity. . . .

“There must be a progressive work of triumph over evil, of sympathy with good, a reflection of the character of Jesus. We must walk in the light, which will increase and grow brighter unto the perfect day. This is real, substantial growth, which will finally attain to the full stature of men and women in Jesus Christ." (OHC 214)

Sanctification is the process of becoming more and more mature, more and more like Jesus. As such, this process, which begins here, will go on forever. In fact, eternity isn’t long enough to exhaust our potential to become more Christlike. Again, this “work of progression will not cease, but will continue throughout eternity.” (HP 186) “Even the most perfect Christian may increase continually in the knowledge and love of God.” (ML 249)

MM, what you consider "conversion" is what I (and I think almost all) Christians would consider "sanctification." That's the point I was making. I wasn't saying that you, in your mind, think they are the same.

Specifically, the idea that God reveals every sinful habit cultivated since birth to one before one is converted, has nothing to do with conversion as the term is commonly described and as the examples in Scripture, and the Spirit of Prophecy, show by example. Never is the description of one converted described in terms of "and now the Holy Spirit has finally revealed the last sinful habit, the 5,763rd one, which has been confessed, and conversion has ended."

Even you seem not to believe the God reveals every sinful habit before one can be converted, because you allow exceptions for smoking, polygamy, and drinking(?) (was Luther lost?; maybe I should anti-Antisemitism to the list).

A question that comes to mind is, how many sinful habits do you think one cultivates from birth?