Thomas: They may still exist but they may no longer rule.Thomas: Confessing comes under the next point, at the foot of the cross. Awareness of God is conversions first step, yelding to Him is its last step. But conversion is neither the first nor the last step on a persons path to God. It is not the first step, for often a person has some way to travel before opening up enough to be able to become aware of God. Nor is conversion the last stepp, for taking up ones cross at calvary and following Jesus is a new journey.The same Paul also wrote the following:
Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to [her] husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of [her] husband.
So then if, while [her] husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, [even] to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not [in] the oldness of the letter.
What shall we say then? [Is] the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin [was] dead.What you are agreeing to here is not exactly what I said. "Believe Gods promise" implies more than finding the cross of Christ. Some people find the cross and come to it but still wont believe Gods promise. They still believe that they must *do* something to merit what God there offers. They have not accepted the promise.

Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that hangeth on a tree: That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though [it be] but a man's covenant, yet [if it be] confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto. Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. And this I say, [that] the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. For if the inheritance [be] of the law, [it is] no more of promise: but God gave [it] to Abraham by promise. Wherefore then [serveth] the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; [and it was] ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. Now a mediator is not [a mediator] of one, but God is one. [Is] the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster [to bring us] unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Thanks for your response, Den. A couple of points:

1)Regarding taking offense, it seems unlikely to me that I would have taken offense for the reason you mentioned. One has to be pretty thick-skinned to participate in internet discussions. I tend to take offense when people imply I'm a moron or imply I'm dishonest or something like that. But not for a request to read posts. So there may have been a misunderstanding there as well. At any rate, we seem to be on good terms now, so lets' continue on this vein.

2)I agree that you have pinpointed an important difference, but it's not the only one. For example, what John has been speaking of regarding self-righteousness and the righteousness of faith. MM has a completely different understanding than we do as to what righteousness by faith is, which John is trying to come to grips with.

JB: To start looking for sin is to become a reprobate.

MM: The following insight disagrees with your declaration:

TDG 83
We are not to pass on indifferently. We must inquire into the character of our thoughts and feelings, our tempers, purposes, words, and deeds. We are not safe unless we are constantly and successfully warring against our own sinful corruptions. We must consider whether we are an example of Christian holiness, whether we are in the faith. Unless we search diligently examining our hearts in the light of God's Word, self-love will prompt to a much better opinion of ourselves than we should have. {TDG 83.3}

JB: Searching ourselves is not of faith, but by the law; for by the law is the knowledge of sin. … So to search ourselves then is to remain ignorant of God’s righteousness and establish self-righteousness. … Oh yes, self does get crucified; not by self-searching, but by faith. It is the only way it ever is crucified.

MM: On the contrary, John, faith is what enables us to know if we are walking in the Spirit, maturing in the fruits of the Spirit, or if we are reprobates, walking after the flesh. Paul’s counsel is clear, “Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves.”

Sister White is also clear, “Unless we search diligently examining our hearts in the light of God's Word, self-love will prompt to a much better opinion of ourselves than we should have.”

Searching, examining ourselves does the exact opposite of what you suggest it will do. If done properly, it prevents “self-love” from prompting us to “a much better opinion of ourselves than we should have.”

Psalm
139:23 Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts:
139:24 And see if there be any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting.

Lamentations
3:40 Let us search and try our ways, and turn again to the LORD.

2 Corinthians
13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

2 Timothy
2:15 Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

JB: The only way I can see coming clear to your question is for you to answer the questions I have asked, which you have not answered:

Have you seen and become a partaker of the glory of God?
Have you seen and become a partaker of all the glory of God?

MM: Yes, so long as I am abiding in Jesus, I am a partaker of the glory of God, a partaker of the divine nature, a partaker of His holiness. But eternity isn't long enough to partake of "all" of His glory.

2 Peter
1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that [pertain] unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

Hebrews
12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected [us], and we gave [them] reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
12:10 For they verily for a few days chastened [us] after their own pleasure; but he for [our] profit, that [we] might be partakers of his holiness.
12:11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

Duplicate post.

TE: MM, what you consider "conversion" is what I (and I think almost all) Christians would consider "sanctification." That's the point I was making. I wasn't saying that you, in your mind, think they are the same.

MM: But conversion and sanctification are two different processes. I make that clear in my description of both. The quotes I posted also make it clear. Sanctification has nothing to do with gradually outgrowing sinful habits or with God gradually exposing to our sight hitherto unknown sinful habits.

TE: Even you seem not to believe the God reveals every sinful habit before one can be converted, because you allow exceptions for smoking, polygamy, and drinking(?) (was Luther lost?; maybe I should anti-Antisemitism to the list).

MM: You are grossly misrepresenting what I believe about God winking at ignorance. Why?

TE: A question that comes to mind is, how many sinful habits do you think one cultivates from birth?

MM: There certainly aren’t “5,763” of them. For example, impatience covers many of our sinful habits. Thus, many sinful habits are crucified the instant we crucify the sin of impatience. Sister White describes it this way:

4T 384, 385
Another book was opened, wherein were recorded the sins of those who profess the truth. Under the general heading of selfishness came every other sin. There were also headings over every column, and underneath these, opposite each name,
were recorded, in their respective columns, the lesser sins. {4T 384.3}

Under covetousness came falsehood, theft, robbery, fraud, and avarice; under ambition came pride and extravagance; jealousy stood at the head of malice, envy, and hatred; and intemperance headed a long list of fearful crimes, such as lasciviousness, adultery, indulgence of animal passions, etc. As I beheld I was filled with inexpressible anguish and exclaimed: "Who can be saved? who will stand justified before God? whose robes are spotless? who are faultless in the sight of a pure and holy God?" {4T 385.1}

MM: The difference between my description and yours is you exclude the law and sinful habits. But it appears that both are implied because you qualify your description by adding being mature in the fruits of the Spirit means sinful habits do not exist. Or, did I misunderstand your addendum?

Thomas: They may still exist but they may no longer rule.

MM: When they are not ruling or controlling us, where do our sinful habits exist?

……………………….

MM: I agree, but I would also add that it includes confessing, in light of the cross, our sinful habits as the Holy Spirit reveals them to us. Just being aware of the fact the Holy Spirit has been working on us from birth isn’t enough. That’s true of everyone, that is, the Holy Spirit has been working on everyone since their birth.

Thomas: Confessing comes under the next point, at the foot of the cross. Awareness of God is conversions first step, yelding to Him is its last step. But conversion is neither the first nor the last step on a persons path to God. It is not the first step, for often a person has some way to travel before opening up enough to be able to become aware of God. Nor is conversion the last stepp, for taking up ones cross at calvary and following Jesus is a new journey.

MM: Well said. We complete the “patient, protracted process” of conversion the moment we “surrender all” to Jesus at the foot of the cross. Surrendering all includes confessing and crucifying our sinful habits, trading them in, as it were, for Christ and His righteousness. But, as you said, there is a sense in which conversion is never ending. In other words, we must continually choose, moment by moment, to stay converted, to continue abiding in Jesus.

…………………………..

MM: I agree with you, but I would hasten to add it also involves crucifying our old man habits of sin. “Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin.” (Rom 6:6, 7) This is not the same thing as saying “the day we no longer sin”.

Paul explains how the old man dies and the new man replaces it. “That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; and be renewed in the spirit of your mind; and that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.” (Eph 4:22-24)

Thomas: The same Paul also wrote the following (Romans 7:1-8):

MM: Do you see a contradiction between my Pauline quotes and yours?

…………………………

Thomas: Rebirth happens when we, at the foot of the cross, believe Gods promise. I suspect that you again would say that this happens when we no longer sin, in other words, fullfill the law perfectly...

MM: I agree rebirth occurs when we complete the “patient, protracted process” of conversion. However, this is not the same things as saying “we no longer sin … fulfill the law perfectly.” There are conditions to the promise, “Go, and sin no more.” Not only must we 1) complete the process of conversion and 2) experience rebirth, we must also 3) abide in Jesus - daily, continually, moment by moment - in order to fulfill the command, “Go, and sin no more.” Again, the conditional promise is – “Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not.” (1 John 3:6)

Thomas: What you are agreeing to here is not exactly what I said. "Believe Gods promise" implies more than finding the cross of Christ. Some people find the cross and come to it but still wont believe Gods promise. They still believe that they must *do* something to merit what God there offers. They have not accepted the promise.

MM: When you wrote – “Rebirth happens when we, at the foot of the cross, believe Gods promise.” – I thought you meant it in the true, genuine, saving sense, not in a meritorious sense. So, yes, I agree that not everybody responds to the cross in the saving sense.

Do you agree with the following insight: