Duplicate post. Sorry.

DB: I would suggest that this assumption is wrong, but to actually know what MM has in mind for the how-to of seeking sinful habits, one would have to actually ask him, which no one has done.

JB: So here is the qestion: How would you know whether all of your (each, every and all) sinful habits; including the unknown ones, have been revealed and crucified? In other words, how will you know that you have no more sinful habits?

MM: If people follow the steps Jesus prescribed in Matthew 28:19, 20 whether or not they have confessed and crucified “every” (SC 29) sinful habit would be self-evident. The Holy Spirit enlightens them. “The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God.” (Rom 8:16)

They are not left to their own devices. They are not left in darkness. “For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.” (Rom 8:13, 14)

TE: Even you seem not to believe the God reveals every sinful habit before one can be converted, because you allow exceptions for smoking, polygamy, and drinking(?) (was Luther lost?; maybe I should anti-Antisemitism to the list).

MM: You are grossly misrepresenting what I believe about God winking at ignorance. Why?

TE: In what way am I even minutely misrepresenting what you believe? You stated these things as possible "exceptions to the rule," didn't you? I'm asking you if you believe Luther was lost, because he was a heavy beer drinker. Most Christians see nothing wrong with moderate drinking. I'm not defending their view, but am simply pointing out that if moderate drinking causes one to be lost, then there are many like Luther that are going to be lost. Smoking and polygamy as exceptions was your idea.

MM: You wrote, “Even you seem not to believe the God reveals every sinful habit before one can be converted, because you allow exceptions for …”

Instead of quoting a whole bunch of texts which do not say what you assert (not including exceptions), why not quote one which says what you assert? Find one quote that says that the way to conversion is, as a rule, to have every sinful habit cultivated from birth revealed to you by the Holy Spirit and confessed.

You won't be able to do this, because that's not how conversion works. Anyone who has been converted knows how it works. It works as EGW described it in discussing the conversation of Jesus with Nicodemus. The love of God is revealed through JJesus Christ. It is the goodness of God which leads to repentance (Romans 2:4). As Christ crucified is revealed, the sinner is drawnt to Christt in repentance for his sins. If he does not resist, he responds by repenting, and yielding himself to God, which results in the sinner being brought into harmony with God. He is reconciled by faith.

TE: If you think there is are only a couple of these, then you're in the same boat as Waggoner, with whom I agree, that God presents to us representative sins, and we repent of these. But you have presented a painstaking, long process where God presents to us every sinful habit cultivated from birth, implying a long list. So how long a list are we talking about?

MM: I also agree that God, under the right conditions, reveals to us “representative sins”. Such representations encompass the root of every sinful habit. By “right conditions” I mean the person is taught, in accordance with the gospel commission (Mat 28:19, 20), to observe everything Jesus commanded.

Unfortunately, however, most are not; thus, many never experience true, genuine conversion and rebirth. According to the numerous SOP quotes posted above, it is never too late (thank you Jesus) to experience a “thorough conversion” and “radical transformation” to the will and way of God almighty.

What are you talking about? Let's take a specific example, the Sabbath. Many Christians, most, in fact, have no idea that God wants us to remember the Sabbath (as we understand it, from Friday sunset to Saturday sunset). Are they not genuinely born again or converted if they are not instructed to keep the Sabbath? This is, after all, part of the Law of God by which we are judged. Or is this an "exception"?

TE: Anyone who has been converted knows how it works. It works as EGW described it in discussing the conversation of Jesus with Nicodemus. The love of God is revealed through JJesus Christ. It is the goodness of God which leads to repentance (Romans 2:4). As Christ crucified is revealed, the sinner is drawnt to Christt in repentance for his sins. If he does not resist, he responds by repenting, and yielding himself to God, which results in the sinner being brought into harmony with God. He is reconciled by faith.

MM: Amen! The goodness of God does indeed lead sinners to repentance and conversion. The questions is - Does God wait until after we are born again to reveal to us certain sinful habits? Which sins does the goodness of God not lead us to repent of until sometime after we are converted?

TE: What are you talking about? Let's take a specific example, the Sabbath. Many Christians, most, in fact, have no idea that God wants us to remember the Sabbath (as we understand it, from Friday sunset to Saturday sunset). Are they not genuinely born again or converted if they are not instructed to keep the Sabbath? This is, after all, part of the Law of God by which we are judged. Or is this an "exception"?

MM: Yes, people who are not taught to observe everything Jesus commanded do not experience conversion is God's appointed way. Surely you can agree with this basic logic? If God chooses to admit people to heaven who did not observe the Sabbath, then, yes, it is an exception to the rule.

TE: Anyone who has been converted knows how it works. It works as EGW described it in discussing the conversation of Jesus with Nicodemus. The love of God is revealed through JJesus Christ. It is the goodness of God which leads to repentance (Romans 2:4). As Christ crucified is revealed, the sinner is drawnt to Christt in repentance for his sins. If he does not resist, he responds by repenting, and yielding himself to God, which results in the sinner being brought into harmony with God. He is reconciled by faith.

MM: Amen! The goodness of God does indeed lead sinners to repentance and conversion. The questions is - Does God wait until after we are born again to reveal to us certain sinful habits?

At least in some cases, according to you, the answer is "yes." For example, you've mentioned smoking and polygamy. Assuming Luther is amongst the sheep, drinking would have to be added to the list too.

Which sins does the goodness of God not lead us to repent of until sometime after we are converted?

Have you stopped beating your wife?

TE: What are you talking about? Let's take a specific example, the Sabbath. Many Christians, most, in fact, have no idea that God wants us to remember the Sabbath (as we understand it, from Friday sunset to Saturday sunset). Are they not genuinely born again or converted if they are not instructed to keep the Sabbath? This is, after all, part of the Law of God by which we are judged. Or is this an "exception"?

MM: Yes, people who are not taught to observe everything Jesus commanded do not experience conversion is God's appointed way.

Meaning they won't be in heaven?

Surely you can agree with this basic logic? If God chooses to admit people to heaven who did not observe the Sabbath, then, yes, it is an exception to the rule.

No, I don't agree with this. You've got a different rule in mind. The "rule" I know of, which I wouldn't call a rule, but a principle, is that salvation is by faith. This is because faith is the only thing that can reconcile us to God; it's not an arbitrary requirement, as if God, had He felt like it, could have chosen some other requirement other than faith by which we could be reconciled, but faith really is the only thing that can reconcile us.

Tom, are you avoiding my point? The point is - There is an appointed way to experience true, genuine conversion. This way is described and prescribed in Mathew 28:19, 20. According to Jesus, the appointed way to experience true, genuine conversion involves 1) learning and understanding everything He commanded, and 2) obeying and observing everything He commanded.

Do you agree that there is an appointed way? Do you agree it is prescribed and described in Matthew 28:19, 20?

It is true, however, that God has made exceptions to the rule (i.e., principle, prescription, the mandatory way, etc). Such exceptions, nevertheless, do not undermine the rule. God's winking at ignorance does not condone it. Nobody will be translated alive who is guilty of sinning ignorantly. Why do you suppose that is?

Do you agree that winking at ignorance does not mean there is not an appointed way?

I disagree with what you think the appointed way is. I think the appointed way is expressed by Jesus Christ here:



Jesus Christ is the way, the truth, and the life. We are reconciled to God by faith in Him. Not by works. No lists are involved, of commandments to recite, or sinful habits to confess. That which is required is a right heart. God brings representative sins to our minds that we might see our need of Him, that we might repent. But the goal is Christ:



I really don't agree at all with what you've written. I believe conversion is *evidenced* by the things you are suggesting, but not effected (which means "brought about," not "affected") by the things you are suggesting.

If we are converted, then God has our heart, which includes our time, our money, our strength, all that we have and are. The sincerity of our conversion will be demonstrated by the things we do and say, as well as our openness to truth. But it seems to me that path you are suggesting is similar to the pitfall the pharisees slid into.

Regarding the winking at ignorance question, I don't think that has anything to do with it. There's one way of salvation, which is through Jesus Christ. There are no exceptions. No one comes to the Father buy by Him. *How* a person comes to Christ varies, but in every conversion there are general principles involved, which were sketched out in the DA quote cited. A person is made aware of his need for forgiveness, for reconciliation, and through Christ, by the Holy Spirit, is presented the means by which one may be brought in harmony to God.

TE: I disagree with what you think the appointed way is. I think the appointed way is expressed by Jesus Christ here (John 6:28, 29 quoted).

MM: I believe Matthew 28:19, 20 includes the truth brought out in John 6:28, 29. Believing on Jesus is indispensable. Jesus explained that to believe on Him is to behave like Him.

John
14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater [works] than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

Belief and behaviour, like faith and works, are inseparable. They go hand-in-hand. Jesus demonstrated this principle in the way He lived His life. That's why He taught His disciples to teach people to understand and observe everything He commanded. His example is the way.

The purpose of the appointed way, that is, the right and only way to experience and complete the process of conversion, is to help people be like Jesus. Hopefully we can at least agree on this insight. Exactly how many sinful habits are not revealed until after people are truly and genuinely converted is something we may never agree on.

TE: I disagree with what you think the appointed way is. I think the appointed way is expressed by Jesus Christ here (John 6:28, 29 quoted).

MM: I believe Matthew 28:19, 20 includes the truth brought out in John 6:28, 29. Believing on Jesus is indispensable. Jesus explained that to believe on Him is to behave like Him.

Your last sentence agrees with what I've been saying.

John
14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater [works] than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

Belief and behaviour, like faith and works, are inseparable. They go hand-in-hand. Jesus demonstrated this principle in the way He lived His life. That's why He taught His disciples to teach people to understand and observe everything He commanded. His example is the way.

The purpose of the appointed way, that is, the right and only way to experience and complete the process of conversion, is to help people be like Jesus. Hopefully we can at least agree on this insight. Exactly how many sinful habits are not revealed until after people are truly and genuinely converted is something we may never agree on.

The problem I perceive is that you appear to be making the evidence of the process (behaving like Jesus) a prerequisite, whereas the only prerequisite is faith. If we need to do something to be saved which involves works as a process of obtaining that which God gives us freely, then we make God a debtor to us. Paul speaks of this at length in Romans. (Ellen White also, as in "Faith and Works" e.g. the first chapter).

Paul uses the argument that Abraham was circumcised *after* he believed on the Lord, showing that circumcision was an evidence of the righteousness he *already* had by faith.

The error I perceive you to be making is that you appear to be making the *evidence* of the righteousness which we have by faith (e.g. baptism) a *means* of obtaining the righteousness. This makes righteousness not by faith, but by works.

The works are an *evidence* of the righteousness, which is obtained by faith.

The above is a theological way of communicating an idea which is very easily explained in a non-theological way. Our problem is that we are estranged by God because of our sin. It's no a problem from God's perspective, in terms of His having to deal with us, which is seen most clearly by the way Jesus Christ treated sinners. He didn't shun them, but fellowshipped with them. Indeed, this was the complaint that the religious people had against them. However, it is a problem for us. Our sins cause us to view God in a way He is not, as judgmental, looking to find fault with us, and punish us if we don't do what He says. We seem Him in a way that causes us to be afraid of Him, instead of viewing Him as friend, as lover, as Father, as the Bible portrays Him to be.

So how does God get us to lay down our arms, to stop fighting against Him, to be reconciled to Him? By a revelation of His true character. Rather than heartless judge, God has revealed Himself as loving Father. Jesus Christ came to show us what God is really like. (John 1:18). This was the "whole purpose of His earthly ministry" (Ellen White, ST 1/20/90).

When we see the truth about God, that He is like Jesus Christ, gracious, compassionate, eager to forgive, wanting nothing more than for us to be in a right relationship with Him, we (if we don't resist) respond to the Holy Spirit, who effects in us the miracle of the new birth, reconciling us to God.

Having been reconciled to God, it *then* becomes our desire to behave like Jesus, to do the "all things" He commanded. But this *follows* our having been reconciled. It cannot precede it. That would be putting the cart before the horse, changing grace into works, and making God a debtor, which cannot be.