Ok, here I have some conversion testimonies that I think ought to interest you both, Tom and Mike.
http://www.dreamsandvisions.com/English/index.html
And of the ones Ive seen so far, this one especially:
http://www.dreamsandvisions.com/English/ali.html

TE: Your last sentence agrees with what I've been saying.

MM: I don’t think we have ever disagreed about the relationship between saving faith and works and salvation. We both agree that saving faith and good works are inseparable. We are not saved because “of” good works, rather we are saved “unto” good works.

Ephesians
2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

1SM 377
While good works will not save even one soul, yet it is impossible for even one soul to be saved without good works. (1SM 377)

FW 95
While we are to be in harmony with God’s law, we are not saved by the works of the law, yet we cannot be saved without obedience. . . . He does not save us by law, neither will He save us in disobedience to law. (FW 95)


TE: The problem I perceive is that you appear to be making the evidence of the process (behaving like Jesus) a prerequisite, whereas the only prerequisite is faith.

MM: I agree saving faith is the only prerequisite. But can we divorce saving faith and works? It is not biblical faith if it is not saving faith that works by love. Faith without works is not biblical faith. Do you agree? Yes, we are saved by faith, not by works; but faith without works is dead. Again, “While good works will not save even one soul, yet it is impossible for even one soul to be saved without good works.”

TE: If we need to do something to be saved which involves works as a process of obtaining that which God gives us freely, then we make God a debtor to us.

MM: True. But again we have never disagreed regarding this point.

TE: The error I perceive you to be making is that you appear to be making the *evidence* of the righteousness which we have by faith (e.g. baptism) a *means* of obtaining the righteousness. This makes righteousness not by faith, but by works. The works are an *evidence* of the righteousness, which is obtained by faith.

MM: Again, saving faith without works is dead. Yes, righteousness by saving faith is not righteousness by works devoid of saving faith. On this we agree.

TE: So how does God get us to lay down our arms, to stop fighting against Him, to be reconciled to Him? By a revelation of His true character. . . . Jesus Christ came to show us what God is really like. (John 1:18). This was the "whole purpose of His earthly ministry" (Ellen White, ST 1/20/90).

MM: Amen! The law of God reflects the character of God. Jesus did indeed demonstrate how to live in harmony with the law of God while at the same time displaying the love and character of God. "His life testifies that it is possible for us also to obey the law of God."

You and I disagree as to how completely people are like Jesus the moment they experience conversion and rebirth in God's appointed way. We also disagree on what constitutes God's duly appointed way. Thus we have not been able to agree on the answer to the question that is the title of this thread.

DA 24
Satan represents God's law of love as a law of selfishness. He declares that it is impossible for us to obey its precepts. The fall of our first parents, with all the woe that has resulted, he charges upon the Creator, leading men to look upon God as the author of sin, and suffering, and death. Jesus was to unveil this deception. As one of us He was to give an example of obedience. For this He took upon Himself our nature, and passed through our experiences. "In all things it behooved Him to be made like unto His brethren." Heb. 2:17. If we had to bear anything which Jesus did not endure, then upon this point Satan would represent the power of God as insufficient for us. Therefore Jesus was "in all points tempted like as we are." Heb. 4:15. He endured every trial to which we are subject. And He exercised in His own behalf no power that is not freely offered to us. As man, He met temptation, and overcame in the strength given Him from God. He says, "I delight to do Thy will, O My God: yea, Thy law is within My heart." Ps. 40:8. As He went about doing good, and healing all who were afflicted by Satan, He made plain to men the character of God's law and the nature of His service. His life testifies that it is possible for us also to obey the law of God. {DA 24.2}

TE: When we see the truth about God, that He is like Jesus Christ, gracious, compassionate, eager to forgive, wanting nothing more than for us to be in a right relationship with Him, we (if we don't resist) respond to the Holy Spirit, who effects in us the miracle of the new birth, reconciling us to God. Having been reconciled to God, it *then* becomes our desire to behave like Jesus, to do the "all things" He commanded. But this *follows* our having been reconciled. It cannot precede it. That would be putting the cart before the horse, changing grace into works, and making God a debtor, which cannot be.

MM: Amen! God not only gives us a “desire” to live like Jesus, He also gives us the power to do it. But only born again believers who are abiding in Jesus, who are partaking of the divine nature have the power to be like Jesus, to obey and observe everything He commanded.

Which, of course, includes “all things”. We are not truly reconciled to God if we are ignorantly sinning, especially if we are sinning because God is purposely keeping us in the dark, as it were, until a more convenient time to reveal it to us. Which is what I hear you saying. Please correct if I have misunderstood you.

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MM: You did not address these two points.

Thomas, you're right, Ali's story is awesome. I hope he completes the process of conversion in God's appointed way. Which is not say he isn't saved, but if he isn't obeying and observing everything Jesus commanded then he hasn't completed the process of conversion. Completing the process of conversion in God's appointed way means being like Jesus, that is, living in harmony with the 28 SDA fundamental beliefs.

So awaiting the day when he gets in touch with SDAs, he is still saved even though he is not fully converted? What does conversion mean?

You have to live in harmony with the 28 fundamental beliefs in order to be converted? My goodness, what a thought! Before when there were only 27 fundamental beliefs, was 27 enough?

This sounds Catholic. Authority to determine whether or not one is converted rests with the committee who determined the 27 or 28 fundamental beliefs?

MM:Which, of course, includes “all things”. We are not truly reconciled to God if we are ignorantly sinning,

What does this mean? Virtually everyone, if not everyone, ignorantly sins. Does this mean no one is reconciled to God? Let's just consider non-SDA Christians. If your statement were true, it would mean no non-SDAs are truly reconciled to God.

especially if we are sinning because God is purposely keeping us in the dark, as it were, until a more convenient time to reveal it to us. Which is what I hear you saying. Please correct if I have misunderstood you.

I've never said anything like this. What I've repeatedly said is that God reveals truth to us as fast as we are willing and able to receive it. Do you agree with this?

Our conversion is not contingent upon God's having revealed all truth to us, but rather, upon faith. We are accountability to light we have access to, not for things we don't know (assuming we have not willingly avoided such knowledge).

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Quote:
The purpose of the appointed way, that is, the right and only way to experience and complete the process of conversion, is to help people be like Jesus. [1] Hopefully we can at least agree on this insight. [2] Exactly how many sinful habits are not revealed until after people are truly and genuinely converted is something we may never agree on.

MM: You did not address these two points.

1.The appointed way is faith. 2.You've never said how many habits are revealed to a "truly converted" person. How many do you think there are? If you can provide some figure, then I can make some comment as to whether I agree or not.

Is not the enlightenment of the holy spirit received by faith?

What does the spirit bear witness with our spirit? "That we are the sons of God", right?

Are those who live by faith left to their own devices? Are not they who are of the law left to their own devices?

Gal 3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

What problem do you have with "faith"? Why is faith not meaningful to you?

The scriptures you quoted have nothing to do with "sinful habits". They have to do with two different realms; two different sources.

TV: So awaiting the day when he gets in touch with SDAs, he is still saved even though he is not fully converted? What does conversion mean?

MM: Yes, Ali is saved if he continues to live in harmony with the light he believes is true and right. “Conversion” and “converted” are different aspects of the same thing. “Converted” means a person has completed the “process of conversion”, namely, they have learned how to live in harmony with everything Jesus commanded us to obey and observe.

TE: You have to live in harmony with the 28 fundamental beliefs in order to be converted?

MM: Tom, Jesus raised up the Remnant Church to restore and repair the truths that were all but lost during the Dark Ages. “Thou shalt be called, The repairer of the breach, The restorer of paths to dwell in.” (Isa 58:12) Which church do you believe is the Remnant Church of prophecy? I believe it is the SDA church.