MM: Thomas, Jesus Himself addressed a question very similar to yours. I agree with His answer. Knowing and showing, willing and doing, are both important.

TE: I'm not understanding your comment. Are you saying that being able to list the Ten Commandments is a requirement to enter into heaven?

MM: Jesus made it clear that being able to repeat the 10Cs by remote memory is not enough. Jesus was also very clear about the relationship between "doing His will" and salvation, and "not doing His will" and damnation.

Matthew
7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

John
3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

John
9:31 Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth.

Romans
10:5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.

James
4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth [it] not, to him it is sin.

1 John
2:17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.
2:29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

1 John
3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

3 John
1:11 Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God.

Are you sure you are not abusing the remnant church concept?Mike, surely you must see that this claim is pure presumption. On what grounds are you telling Tom what *his* conversion experience was and what it wasnt? Mike, time to unmount that high horse before you fall off and hurt yourself.

So you are saying that not only is it necessary that one be able to repeat the 10 Commandments, that that's not even enough?

MM, I started to answer the really long post, on the previous page, but it became clear to me that it was going to become really, really long, and you weren't dealing with the points I made. You answered my questions with more questions. You jump to conclusions with no basis to do so.

For example, you wrote, "You make it clear you did not repent." also "And yet you seem to think it (conversion) is quite common."

Rather than recognize these baseless accusations for what they are (baseless), you continue to repeat them. It would be better if you retracted them.

If you wish to organize your thoughts a little more clearly, such as making a list of questions or points you'd like me to address, I'll be happy to address your questions. I would also appreciate it if you would address the questions and points I made in some other way than simply asking me more questions or making points about some other subject.

For example, I've pointed out that you seem to have no concept about what conversion entails for a non-SDA. As I pointed out, most non-SDA's drink, eat pork, don't keep Sabbath, many dance, and many other things could be listed. Are none of these people converted?

Do you agree that most converted Christians are not SDA's?

I will respond to one portion of the post:



How about the youngster I mentioned? Did he also not respond in God's appointed way?

Also, it seems you are implying the Holy Spirit goofed in His job. He should have waited to show Christ to me until after I had first been taught what the Ten Commandments were. That seems to be your suggestion.

TV: Mike, surely you must see that this claim is pure presumption. On what grounds are you telling Tom what *his* conversion experience was and what it wasnt? Mike, time to unmount that high horse before you fall off and hurt yourself.

MM: Okay.

MM: Jesus made it clear that being able to repeat the 10Cs by remote memory is not enough. Jesus was also very clear about the relationship between "doing His will" and salvation, and "not doing His will" and damnation.

TE: So you are saying that not only is it necessary that one be able to repeat the 10 Commandments, that that's not even enough?

MM: What do you think Jesus meant in the following passages? I believe they teach understanding and doing the will of God are required. Do you agree?


TE: For example, I've pointed out that you seem to have no concept about what conversion entails for a non-SDA. As I pointed out, most non-SDA's drink, eat pork, don't keep Sabbath, many dance, and many other things could be listed. Are none of these people converted?

MM: Only God knows who is truly converted. Jesus taught His disciples to teach people to observe everything He commanded. Do you agree?

TE: Do you agree that most converted Christians are not SDA's?

MM: I don’t know. Do you?

TE: How about the youngster I mentioned? Did he also not respond in God's appointed way?

MM: Did his conversion harmonize with Jesus’ prescription in Matthew 28:19, 20?

TE: Also, it seems you are implying the Holy Spirit goofed in His job. He should have waited to show Christ to me until after I had first been taught what the Ten Commandments were. That seems to be your suggestion.

MM: When did I imply such a thing? Is not Jesus the very personification of the 10cs? His life and teachings magnify them, right?

Isaiah
42:21 The LORD is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the law, and make [it] honourable.

1.I think the statements of Jesus mean exactly what I said in saying the genuiness of our conversion will be shown by the things we do and say.

2.I asked "are none of these people converted"? in regards to non-SDA's who eat pork, drink wine, etc. You really can't answer this question, "no"? You're really unsure about this?

3.Yes, most converted Christians are non-SDA's. You're really unsure about this too?

4.I explained his conversion. Does a five year old need to be able to recite the 10 commandments?

5.You stated I "did not experience conversion in God’s appointed way." This seems to imply the Holy Spirit goofed by not following God's appointed way.

Actually it's rathy haughty of you to presume to make such a declaration.

Everything you have written, and are writing, makes me wonder, what do you think conversion is about? Your posts are full of rules that must be followed, and practically devoid of what's really important, which is a relationship with God though Jesus Christ by faith.

Have you every given your life to Christ? If so, what was the experience like? Did it consist of your reaching the last sinful habit which the Holy Spirit revealed, your confessing it, and then a realization of "O.K., now I have no more sinful habits. I'm converted!"

I'm shared my conversion story with you. I'd very interested in hearing yours.

1.I think the statements of Jesus mean exactly what I said in saying the genuiness of our conversion will be shown by the things we do and say.

MM: Great. But I believe “the things we do and say” are, if we complete the “patient, protracted process” of conversion in God’s appointed way, in harmony with everything Jesus commanded us to obey and observe. I strongly suspect we disagree.

2.I asked "are none of these people converted"? in regards to non-SDA's who eat pork, drink wine, etc. You really can't answer this question, "no"? You're really unsure about this?

MM: I really cannot say with certainty who is truly, genuinely converted or not. Only God knows. Anything is possible, right?

3.Yes, most converted Christians are non-SDA's. You're really unsure about this too?

MM: Based on Matthew 28:19 and 20 I agree with Sister White that conversions are “rare”. Jesus said, “Many are called, but few are chosen.” I suspect most so-called conversions are partial and incomplete, that most of them constitute the beginning of the process, not the completion of it, and that most people are ignorant of the difference because they haven't been taught the truth about it.

4.I explained his conversion. Does a five year old need to be able to recite the 10 commandments?

MM: Does a five year old need to be converted? Can a five year old comprehend the need for or the meaning of conversion? In what way is a five year old different before and after conversion? The Jews preferred age 12 – why? Can a five year old experience true, genuine conversion as prescribed and described in Matthew 28: 19 and 20 if they cannot “recite” the 10Cs? Here’s what God commands us to teach our children:

“And ye shall teach them [i.e., “all these commandments which I command you”] your children, speaking of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, when thou liest down, and when thou risest up. And thou shalt write them upon the door posts of thine house, and upon thy gates.” (Deut 11:19, 20)

5.You stated I "did not experience conversion in God’s appointed way." This seems to imply the Holy Spirit goofed by not following God's appointed way. Actually it's rathy haughty of you to presume to make such a declaration.

MM: I am sorry this dialogue makes you think that I am being “haughty” or that the Holy Spirit “goofed”. I do not believe, based on your brief testimony, that you completed the “patient, protracted process” of conversion on the day you believe you were converted. I believe you embarked upon the process on that day, but I do not believe you completed it, in God’s appointed way, on that day.

I am not being judgmental. I am simply basing my observation on the content of your testimony and the description of true, genuine conversion given in the Bible and the SOP. If this offends you then I am happy to end this dialogue immediately. I am even willing to go back and delete my posts, if that’s allowed on MSDAOL. Let me know what you want me to do.

TE: Everything you have written, and are writing, makes me wonder, what do you think conversion is about? Your posts are full of rules that must be followed, and practically devoid of what's really important, which is a relationship with God though Jesus Christ by faith.

MM: Again, I’m sorry.

TE: Have you every given your life to Christ? If so, what was the experience like? Did it consist of your reaching the last sinful habit which the Holy Spirit revealed, your confessing it, and then a realization of "O.K., now I have no more sinful habits. I'm converted!" I'm shared my conversion story with you. I'd very interested in hearing yours.

MM: I learned about many of the things Jesus commanded us to obey and observe between the ages of 15 and 17. But I did not embark upon the “patient, protracted process” of conversion until the age of 22. I do not believe I completed the process until I was 35. The reason it took so long is I was taught that overcoming my sinful habits took time and patience, that sinning and repenting was a normal part of the process of sanctification. Thus, I tolerated my frequent failures, even though I was miserable.

In 1995, however, I discovered the truth about conversion and rebirth, the truth as it is in Jesus. I believe I completed the process of conversion at that time. Do I have any more sinful habits God hasn’t “exposed” (SC 29) to my sight yet, that He is allowing me to sin in ignorance until the time is right? I do not believe so. “The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God.” (Rom 8:16)

Did discovering and embracing the truth as it is in Jesus cause me to lose the ability and freedom to commit known sins? No. Have I sinned since embracing the truth as it is in Jesus? Unfortunately, I have. The gift of repentance, praise God, empowers me to confess and forsake my sin. The Holy Spirit restores the relationship my sin severed.

But when I faithfully and diligently keep my eyes on Jesus, when I am abiding in Him, when I am walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man I do not sin against my Lord and Saviour or against my fellow humans. Indeed, the truth makes me free. I love it. Thank you, Jesus.

Okay? Okay what?

Thomas, I explained it to Tom. Also, your comment about a "high horse" was less than endearing.