TE: Do you see the contradiction here? If we can't do everything until after we are converted (because being converted makes it possible to abide in Jesus, and doing everything is the fruit of abiding in Jesus), and we aren't converted until after we do everything, that's a contradiction.

MM: I do not view it as contradiction. These are steps in the process of conversion.

But they're contradictory steps. You didn't consider the contradiction, which I pointed out above. You can't abide in Jesus until you're converted, and you can't complete the process of conversion unless you're abiding in Jesus. You've cut some stuff out from the post I was responding to, but if you go back there, you can see the contradiction in more detail.

TE: In general, the problem I see in your idea of conversion is that we have to perform good works in order to be converted.

MM: Conversion is a process, not a power. The power to be like Jesus is result of abiding in Jesus.

This doesn't impact my observation in any way. You still see that we need to do works in order to be converted. This is very clear. You've said as much many times.

TE: It is because of your understanding of conversion that you emphasize sinful habits, and doing everything Jesus commanded, as opposed to mercy, forgiveness and faith, not to mention the cross, or the love of God.

MM: Were it not for mercy, faith, the cross, forgiveness, and the love of God - none us would be around to experience conversion or rebirth.

My observation was that because of your understanding of conversion, you emphasize sinful habits, and doing everything Jesus commanded, as opposed to mercy, forgiveness, faith, the cross, and the love of God. If you simply look at what you post, you will see that this is the case. Your theology dictates the things you think are important, and these are what you talk about.

TE: I think I'm seeing the problem. By "conversion" you mean what most people would call "perfection." By "saved" you mean what most people would call "converted." I think we've been talking past each other to a fair extent.

MM: Wrong again.

"Again"? That's a bit cheeky. Where was I wrong before?

By the “process of conversion” I mean the time it takes people to learn about everything Jesus commanded us to obey and observe. By “perfecting character” I mean growing in grace and maturing in the fruits of the Spirit as we abide in Jesus after we complete the process of conversion.

What YOU mean by "perfection" is not important to my comment. If you read what I wrote, I said by "conversion" you mean what MOST PEOPLE would call "perfection." Before chiding someone for being "wrong again," you might wish to read what you're responding to more carefully.

By “saved” I mean living up to the light we believe is true and right whether or not we have completed the process of conversion. By “converted” I mean people who have completed the process of conversion. By “new birth, rebirth, born again” I mean people who have completed the process of conversion. These are normal definitions.

Normal for you maybe, but not for anyone else. I doubt anyone else on this forum shares these defintions. The nomral definitions for "converted" or "born again" or "new birth" or "rebirth" are "what happens when one accepts Christ as one's personal Savior." What you consider "saved" is closer to what everyone else considers "converted" "born again" etc.

TE: From earlier in the post you say some will be saved, although they are not converted. Would you also say that some are saved even though they are not born again?

MM: Again, people are saved if they are living up to the light they believe is true and right. It doesn’t matter if they complete the process of conversion before they die. To be translated alive, however, they must complete the process of conversion.

Again, what you are calling "conversion," most people would call "perfection" (or, more accurately, "perfection of character").

TE: Ok, so you are saying no non-SDA's are converted. Would you also say that no non-SDA's are born again?

MM: No one is born again if they do not complete the process of conversion. And no can complete it if they do not learn how to live in harmony with everything Jesus commanded. They may be in the process of converting and living up to the light they have, but they cannot complete the process until learn how to be like Jesus in every way. Again, this does not mean they are lost. Also no one can remain converted if they neglect to “stay converted” moment by moment. We must consciously choose to abide in Jesus or we cease, by default, to continue abiding in Him.

So this is "yes," right? It has to be, if one must follow the 28 fundamental beliefs in order to be born again.

MM: I agree it involves giving their heart to Jesus. But we disagree as to what state it is in when they complete the process of converting. I believe the sins that were practiced before conversion are revealed, confessed, and crucified when they complete the process. You disagree.

“The sins that were practiced before conversion, are to be put off, with the old man. With the new man, Christ Jesus, are to be put on “kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering.” (SD 300)


MM: But you also believe it involves God revealing to them the sinful habits He chose not to expose to their sight before they completed the process of conversion. But the SOP describes it very much differently. She says people see “every” sinful habit for what it is before they complete the process of conversion.

“One ray of the glory of God, one gleam of the purity of Christ, penetrating the soul, makes every spot of defilement painfully distinct, and lays bare the deformity and defects of the human character. It makes apparent the unhallowed desires, the infidelity of the heart, the impurity of the lips. The sinner's acts of disloyalty in making void the law of God, are exposed to his sight, and his spirit is stricken and afflicted under the searching influence of the Spirit of God. He loathes himself as he views the pure, spotless character of Christ.” (SC 29)


MM: I believe people are saved, in accordance with the conditions stated above, before they complete the process of converting from sinning to not sinning to maturing in the fruits of the Spirit.


MM: Converted from what to what? Your definition means people have completed the process of conversion before they crucify their old man habits of sinning. The SOP describes it very much differently.

“The old nature, born of blood and the will of the flesh, cannot inherit the kingdom of God. The old ways, the hereditary tendencies, the former habits, must be given up; for grace is not inherited. The new birth consists in having new motives, new tastes, new tendencies. Those who are begotten unto a new life by the Holy Spirit, have become partakers of the divine nature, and in all their habits and practices they will give evidence of their relationship to Christ. When men who claim to be Christians retain all their natural defects of character and disposition, in what does their position differ from that of the worldling? They do not appreciate the truth as a sanctifier, a refiner. They have not been born again.” (6 BC 1101)

MM: You say conversion is not about sinful habits, but the SOP says the “former habits” are given up, that “all their habits and practices” are in harmony with the law and love God. She goes on to say that people who “retain” their sinful habits have not been born again.

“When a soul is truly converted, old habits and natural evil besetments are done away in Christ Jesus and all things become new.” (TMK 247) “There is not a stain in the character because God is enthroned in the heart and Christ does not war against Christ.” (1 S&T 246) “Transformation of heart means an entire change of the entire man.” (TDG 48)

MM: You say people are converted before they know about their sinful habits, before they give them up. The SOP says their “old habits” are done away with, that there is “not a stain in the character”, that an “entire change" is wrought. The only way this can happen is if they learn how, during the process of conversion, to obey and observe everything Jesus commanded. Otherwise, an entire change of the entire man could not happen.


MM: We disagree as to the timing of when someone experiences the miracle of rebirth and in what state they are in when they complete the process of conversion. You believe they are born practicing certain sinful habits. I believe they are born again dead to sin and awake to righteousness, abiding in Jesus, growing by faith in grace and maturing in the fruits of the Spirit.


MM: Again, we disagree as to the condition of the heart after they complete the process of conversion. Here is what I believe:

“The heart must [1] first accept the truth as it is in Jesus. This is the foundation of true religion. [2] Conviction of sin then begins to be felt; the sin-sick soul, feeling his need of a physician, comes to Jesus of Nazareth for pardon. [3] Taking up the warfare against the enemy, he looks to Jesus for strength to resist temptation. He watches unto prayer, and searches the Scriptures. The truths of the Bible are seen in a new and intensely interesting light, and the Spirit of God opens to him their solemn importance. He studies the life of Christ, and the more clearly he discerns the spotless purity of the Saviour’s character, the less confidence he has in his own goodness; the more steadily and closely he views Jesus, the less he discovers of perfection in himself. [4] His self-righteousness disappears, and he falls, all helpless and broken, upon the Rock, Christ Jesus.” (LHU 273)

MM: As the sinner progresses through the steps outlined above he is experiencing the process of conversion. But he does not complete the process until after he falls, all helpless and broken, upon the Rock, Jesus Christ. You seem to believe he experienced conversion at step 1. But the SOP makes it clear people do not experience conversion until after they complete step 4. Here is how she describes falling on the Rock as it relates to rebirth:

“Those who are now first, who have been untrue to the cause of God, will soon be last, unless they repent. Unless they speedily fall upon the Rock and be broken, and be born again, the spirit that has been cherished will continue to be cherished.” (TM 80)

“Many have accepted the theory of the truth who have had no true conversion. I know whereof I speak. There are few who feel true sorrow for sin, who have deep, pungent convictions of the depravity of the unregenerate nature. The heart of stone is not exchanged for a heart of flesh. Few are willing to fall upon the Rock and be broken.” (5T 218)

MM: Again, people do not experience true conversion and rebirth until after they fall upon the Rock and are broken, which is after they complete step 4 outlined in the quote above.

TE: You didn't consider the contradiction, which I pointed out above. You can't abide in Jesus until you're converted, and you can't complete the process of conversion unless you're abiding in Jesus.

MM: I’m sorry I gave you that impression. That’s not what I believe at all. Instead, I believe we confess, in light of the cross, during the process of conversion that our sinful habits must be given up. The power by which we confess our sinful habits (the Holy Spirit impressing us from without) is not the same power by which we crucify them (the Holy Spirit empowering us from within). We complete the process of conversion when our last sinful habit is revealed and confessed. We begin abiding in Jesus and maturing in the fruits of the Spirit the instant we complete the process of conversion.

TE: You still see that we need to do works in order to be converted.

MM: The “works” we do during the process of conversion, before we are born again, that is, before we complete the process, is to confess our sinful habits, as they are revealed in light of the cross, must be given up and crucified. These works are not the same works we experience while abiding in Jesus and maturing in the fruits of the Spirit after we complete the process of conversion, after we are born again.

TE: My observation was that because of your understanding of conversion, you emphasize sinful habits, and doing everything Jesus commanded, as opposed to mercy, forgiveness, faith, the cross, and the love of God. If you simply look at what you post, you will see that this is the case. Your theology dictates the things you think are important, and these are what you talk about.

MM: Not true. We are focusing on our points of disagreement. It does not mean, however, that the areas we agree on are not as important.

TE: "Again"? That's a bit cheeky. Where was I wrong before?

MM: See previous response. You often draw wrong conclusions about what I believe. Brother Den has been bringing this to your attention. I have been guilty of this too.

TE: What YOU mean by "perfection" is not important to my comment. If you read what I wrote, I said by "conversion" you mean what MOST PEOPLE would call "perfection." Before chiding someone for being "wrong again," you might wish to read what you're responding to more carefully.

MM: What I mean, what you mean, and what others mean is VERY important to me. Neither one of us are authorities on Bible truths. Hopefully we are here to learn the truth and not to convince or persuade the other what we think people should believe about our version of the truth.

TE: Normal for you maybe, but not for anyone else. I doubt anyone else on this forum shares these defintions. The nomral definitions for "converted" or "born again" or "new birth" or "rebirth" are "what happens when one accepts Christ as one's personal Savior." What you consider "saved" is closer to what everyone else considers "converted" "born again" etc.

MM: I addressed this in my previous post.


TE: So this is "yes," right? It has to be, if one must follow the 28 fundamental beliefs in order to be born again.

MM: No one is considered “born again” in the eyes of God if their thoughts, feelings, motives, desires, words, and behavior no different before and after they are supposedly converted. The following quote makes this point clear.

“The old nature, born of blood and the will of the flesh, cannot inherit the kingdom of God. The old ways, the hereditary tendencies, the former habits, must be given up; for grace is not inherited. The new birth consists in having new motives, new tastes, new tendencies. Those who are begotten unto a new life by the Holy Spirit, have become partakers of the divine nature, and in all their habits and practices they will give evidence of their relationship to Christ. When men who claim to be Christians retain all their natural defects of character and disposition, in what does their position differ from that of the worldling? They do not appreciate the truth as a sanctifier, a refiner. They have not been born again.” (6 BC 1101)

TE: You didn't consider the contradiction, which I pointed out above. You can't abide in Jesus until you're converted, and you can't complete the process of conversion unless you're abiding in Jesus.

MM: I’m sorry I gave you that impression. That’s not what I believe at all. Instead, I believe we confess, in light of the cross, during the process of conversion that our sinful habits must be given up. The power by which we confess our sinful habits (the Holy Spirit impressing us from without) is not the same power by which we crucify them (the Holy Spirit empowering us from within). We complete the process of conversion when our last sinful habit is revealed and confessed. We begin abiding in Jesus and maturing in the fruits of the Spirit the instant we complete the process of conversion.

So abiding in Jesus has absolutely nothing to do with completing the process of conversion, since one cannot abide in Jesus until *after* one has completed the process of conversion. Therefore people who are saved, but have not completed the process of conversion (e.g. non-SDA Christians who do not follow all the 28 fundamental beliefs of SDA's) have never abided in Jesus, since they have not completed the process of conversion.

TE: You still see that we need to do works in order to be converted.

MM: The “works” we do during the process of conversion, before we are born again, that is, before we complete the process, is to confess our sinful habits, as they are revealed in light of the cross, must be given up and crucified. These works are not the same works we experience while abiding in Jesus and maturing in the fruits of the Spirit after we complete the process of conversion, after we are born again.

What are the works we do after the process of conversion has been completed? Am I correct in assuming that Luther was saved, but had not completed the process of conversion? (since he drank, and did other things not in the 28 fundamental beliefs).

TE: My observation was that because of your understanding of conversion, you emphasize sinful habits, and doing everything Jesus commanded, as opposed to mercy, forgiveness, faith, the cross, and the love of God. If you simply look at what you post, you will see that this is the case. Your theology dictates the things you think are important, and these are what you talk about.

MM: Not true.

It *is* true that this is what you talk about. We've been conversing for three years, or more, on many different topics, and you talk about the same things, which are the things you're talking about it.

You'll notice that Daryl asked the question, "What does this have to do with the topic"? which is a good question.

We are focusing on our points of disagreement. It does not mean, however, that the areas we agree on are not as important.

TE: "Again"? That's a bit cheeky. Where was I wrong before?

MM: See previous response. You often draw wrong conclusions about what I believe.

You often draw wrong conclusions by not reading carefully. I wasn't commenting on what you believe when you made your statement that I was "wrong." I was commenting on what most believe, and I was accurate in what I wrote.

Brother Den has been bringing this to your attention. I have been guilty of this too.

I agree that you often draw wrong conclusions about what I believe, that's true. That's why I've urged you to quote men, which, to be fair, you've been doing a very good job of as of late.

I virtually always quote you when I'm describing what you belief, so if I'm drawing wrong conclusions, it's just because your use of words is different than mine. (e.g., you differentiate between "saved" and "born again," which is unusual).

TE: What YOU mean by "perfection" is not important to my comment. If you read what I wrote, I said by "conversion" you mean what MOST PEOPLE would call "perfection." Before chiding someone for being "wrong again," you might wish to read what you're responding to more carefully.

MM: What I mean, what you mean, and what others mean is VERY important to me.

In the context of the veracity of my statement, it's not important. You're misreading the intent of my statement. You took issue with what I wrote based on your idea of what "perfection" means. But my statement was based on what *others* think perfection means. If you want to take issue with that, you'd have to produce some evidence that most people do not perceive perfection along the lines of what I said. In the context of my statement, what you believe about perfection is not important.

You're going off on a tangent here.

Neither one of us are authorities on Bible truths. Hopefully we are here to learn the truth and not to convince or persuade the other what we think people should believe about our version of the truth.

TE: Normal for you maybe, but not for anyone else. I doubt anyone else on this forum shares these definitions. The normal definitions for "converted" or "born again" or "new birth" or "rebirth" are "what happens when one accepts Christ as one's personal Savior." What you consider "saved" is closer to what everyone else considers "converted" "born again" etc.

MM: I addressed this in my previous post.

Quote:
TE: Ok, so you are saying no non-SDA's are converted. Would you also say that no non-SDA's are born again?

MM: No one is born again if they do not complete the process of conversion. And no can complete it if they do not learn how to live in harmony with everything Jesus commanded. They may be in the process of converting and living up to the light they have, but they cannot complete the process until learn how to be like Jesus in every way. Again, this does not mean they are lost. Also no one can remain converted if they neglect to “stay converted” moment by moment. We must consciously choose to abide in Jesus or we cease, by default, to continue abiding in Him.

TE: So this is "yes," right? It has to be, if one must follow the 28 fundamental beliefs in order to be born again.

MM: No one is considered “born again” in the eyes of God if their thoughts, feelings, motives, desires, words, and behavior no different before and after they are supposedly converted. The following quote makes this point clear.

“The old nature, born of blood and the will of the flesh, cannot inherit the kingdom of God. The old ways, the hereditary tendencies, the former habits, must be given up; for grace is not inherited. The new birth consists in having new motives, new tastes, new tendencies. Those who are begotten unto a new life by the Holy Spirit, have become partakers of the divine nature, and in all their habits and practices they will give evidence of their relationship to Christ. When men who claim to be Christians retain all their natural defects of character and disposition, in what does their position differ from that of the worldling? They do not appreciate the truth as a sanctifier, a refiner. They have not been born again.” (6 BC 1101)

You didn't answer the question I asked. I agree with your comment, that our outward behavior will testify to the genuineness of our conversion. However, *my* question is if one needs to follow the 28 fundamental beliefs in order to be born again.

TE: You'll notice that Daryl asked the question, "What does this have to do with the topic"? which is a good question.

MM: Fair enough.

I appreciate what Mark wrote at the beginning of this thread: