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Re: What if Jesus had failed? [Re: John Boskovic] #86862
03/23/07 03:59 AM
03/23/07 03:59 AM
asygo  Offline
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5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,607
California, USA
 Originally Posted By: John Boskovic
 Quote:
I think you are romanticizing something that is plain and straightforward.

Hmmm, that is strange; was God romanticizing when he found fault with the Israelites in that they were not of faith. Paul also finds fault with their knowledge because it was not of faith, declaring that they were ignorant of God’s righteousness because they were not of faith.


Lack of faith is not romantic in the least.

What is that supposed to say? Did you not kind of flip there? You were proposing something "romantic", not something "not romantic".


That was a response to your equating Israel's lack of faith with God romanticizing.

My original comment was directed toward your comments that foreknowledge is corrupt because it is separate from faith.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: What if Jesus had failed? [Re: John Boskovic] #86863
03/23/07 04:03 AM
03/23/07 04:03 AM
asygo  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,607
California, USA
 Originally Posted By: John Boskovic
What I am referring to is your contention that lack of knowledge is somehow virtuous; that knowledge is corrupt.

What I am contending against is a knowledge that does not allow for faith or love.


In that case, you are contending alone because that is so NOT what I'm talking about. If you read my comments, you will see that the knowledge I'm speaking about, is knowledge that encompasses those things.

If true faith and love are what you are looking for, you will not find them by disparaging knowledge. The blessings God offers include all three.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: What if Jesus had failed? [Re: asygo] #86901
03/23/07 09:25 PM
03/23/07 09:25 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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"What if Jesus had failed?"

He didn't fail. The prophecies portrayed Him succeeding. God knew Jesus would succeed. He never doubted it. Neither did Jesus.

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Re: Jesus took the risk of failure and eternal loss [Re: Daryl] #86904
03/23/07 09:44 PM
03/23/07 09:44 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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"Then as the glories of the eternal home burst upon our enraptured senses we shall remember that Jesus left all this for us, that He not only became an exile from the heavenly courts, but for us took the risk of failure and eternal loss."

1. In what sense was Jesus "an exile"?

2. In what sense did Jesus take a "risk"?

GC 533
Immortality, promised to man on condition of obedience, had been forfeited by transgression. Adam could not transmit to his posterity that which he did not possess; and there could have been no hope for the fallen race had not God, by the sacrifice of His Son, brought immortality within their reach. {GC 533.1}

5BC 1128
But Jesus Christ was the only begotten Son of God. He took upon Himself human nature, and was tempted in all points as human nature is tempted. He could have sinned; He could have fallen, but not for one moment was there in Him an evil propensity. He was assailed with temptations in the wilderness, as Adam was assailed with temptations in Eden. {5BC 1128.4}

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Re: What if Jesus had failed? [Re: Mountain Man] #86907
03/23/07 10:02 PM
03/23/07 10:02 PM
asygo  Offline
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Posts: 5,607
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Now that I think about it, virtually every prophecy depended on Christ's success, except for "You shall surely die."


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: Jesus took the risk of failure and eternal loss [Re: Mountain Man] #86909
03/23/07 10:11 PM
03/23/07 10:11 PM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,607
California, USA
 Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
1. In what sense was Jesus "an exile"?


As our Substitute, He was exiled more than anyone ever has.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: What if Jesus had failed? [Re: asygo] #86912
03/23/07 11:17 PM
03/23/07 11:17 PM
J
John Boskovic  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
 Originally Posted By: asygo
What I am referring to is your contention that lack of knowledge is somehow virtuous; that knowledge is corrupt.

What I am contending against is a knowledge that does not allow for faith or love.

In that case, you are contending alone because that is so NOT what I'm talking about. If you read my comments, you will see that the knowledge I'm speaking about, is knowledge that encompasses those things.


There is knowledge that is of faith, and I have agreed with you on that knowledge. I have been however adressing the aspects of foreknowledge which you have also been proposing, which does not allow for faith.

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Re: What if Jesus had failed? [Re: John Boskovic] #86913
03/23/07 11:57 PM
03/23/07 11:57 PM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,607
California, USA
 Originally Posted By: John Boskovic
I have been however adressing the aspects of foreknowledge which you have also been proposing, which does not allow for faith.


Then you misunderstand me. I have proposed no such concept, nor do I espouse it.

As far as I'm concerned, foreknowledge in the realm of human behavior must necessarily be based on the person's faith in God, and in God's faith in His own knowledge of our characters.

Foreknowledge regarding inanimate objects does not require faith or love or character, just physics.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: Jesus took the risk of failure and eternal loss [Re: asygo] #86917
03/24/07 01:17 AM
03/24/07 01:17 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
But is she using the word "exile" in the normal sense? That is, was Jesus banished from heaven? For example, Lucifer was exiled from heaven.

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Re: What if Jesus had failed? [Re: asygo] #86919
03/24/07 02:00 AM
03/24/07 02:00 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
 Originally Posted By: asygo
Now that I think about it, virtually every prophecy depended on Christ's success, except for "You shall surely die."

Amen! The idea that God did not know in advance Jesus would, without a doubt, succeed on the cross, implies (in light of all the prophecies that foretold Jesus' victory) God was delusional.

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