Hey, very colorful post! Nice!

Events, even future events, are determined by the present actions of people. Actions are determined by choices, and choices character. That's how I see God's creation. It is a very orderly system, governed by countless cause and effect relationships (which finite minds may never fully understand).

Do you think "events" are just arbitrary occurences governed by chance? And hence, "cold" and separate from moral agents? If so, then I can see why you see a dichotomy.

But that is not the case. In fact, the conditional nature of prophecies, even salvation, highlights the order of God's universe. "If this, then that." If God tells us that the cause will result in the effect, that's because that's how He set things up. It is not based on God's arbitrary whims.

Do you ever find God saying, "If this, then it could be that, but it could the other thing, or maybe..."?

How do you think He can be so sure of what's going to happen? Because He knows how things work. And full knowledge of all the causes makes it easy to figure out all the effects (assuming one has enough computational power).



Lack of faith is not romantic in the least. What I am referring to is your contention that lack of knowledge is somehow virtuous; that knowledge is corrupt.

Faith is not opposed to knowledge. In fact, faith without knowledge is not true faith; it is superstition. To believe that one must choose one or the other is to fall into the same fallacy as atheist skeptics.

You ask, "Do you relate to your wife by faith and love or by knowledge?" My answer: faith AND love AND knowledge. All three are fundamental to our relationship.

What about you? Are you so ignorant of your wife's character that you have no idea what she's going to do next? I hope not.

How well do you think God knows our characters? How well do you think He knows Christ's character?

Yes, God does this. For example, when Moses was worried about appearing before Pharaoh, God gave him signs to perform. God said to Moses, "If they will not believe you," God said, "or heed the first sign, they may believe the latter sign." (Ex. 4:8)

God is a master planner. He knows how to plan for contingencies.

Since the late 1850's EGW started to write, "Christ could have come 'ere now." God is aware of possibilities. It's a mistake to think everything is a certainty to God. If that were the case, there could be no risk.

The plan for our redemption was not an afterthought, a plan formulated after the fall of Adam. It was a revelation of "the mystery which hath been kept in silence through times eternal." Rom. 16:25, R. V. It was an unfolding of the principles that from eternal ages have been the foundation of God's throne. From the beginning, God and Christ knew of the apostasy of Satan, and of the fall of man through the deceptive power of the apostate. God did not ordain that sin should exist, but He foresaw its existence, and made provision to meet the terrible emergency. So great was His love for the world, that He covenanted to give His only-begotten Son, "that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16. {DA 22.2}

The purpose and plan of grace existed from all eternity. Before the foundation of the world it was according to the determinate counsel of God that man should be created, endowed with power to do the divine will. But the defection of man, with all its consequences, was not hidden from the Omnipotent, and yet it did not deter Him from carrying out His eternal purpose; for the Lord would establish His throne in righteousness. God knows the end from the beginning. . . . Therefore redemption was not an afterthought . . . but an eternal purpose to be wrought out for the blessing not only of this atom of a world but for the good of all the worlds which God has created. {AG 129.2}

That's not the same thing. It wasn't as if God was saying, "Moses, do this. But I'm not sure how that's going to go over. So in case you need it, here's another thing to do. But it's really hard to figure out how they're going to take that. So here's another one...." Moses was the one who was worried, so God gave him these things in a way to alleviate his fear. (I do the same thing with my kids.)

God knew the characters He was dealing with. Therefore, He knew how those characters would choose to respond to His stimuli.

Compare how God revealed Pharaoh's choices. He knew when his heart would be hard, and when he would let Israel go.

Nothing is hidden from God.

I think God was saying what He said, that perhaps they would respond to the first sign, and if they didn't, then they might react to the second. This doesn't limit God in any way. We have free will to choose to do what we want. These things can't be quantified with 100% certainty.

For example, I've been married for almost 15 years now. My wife still constantly surprises me. Now of course, I'm an idiot compared to God's intelligence, but ever we ourselves don't know the choices that we are going to make.

If things were as you are suggesting, that our choices are fixed completely by our character, then our being saved or not saved would not be dependent upon our choice as the primary cause, but upon the factors that predetermined what choice we would make. Our salvation would be due to factors beyond our control.

A determined future has ugly implications.

An open future may, mistakenly, appear to be limiting God, but that's not the case at all. The reverse is true, because God, rather than having to worry about one set of circumstances (that which is already determined), must take into account a myriad of possibilities. Within the limitless possible consequences of decisions that we may make, and their impact upon others, and the decisions they may make, etc. God is able to take all of that into account and work His will. It takes far greater intelligence to manage things in an open environment like that than in a fixed one.

He said what He said, but that doesn't necessarily mean He meant what you think He meant.

Do you really think God didn't know how the Israelites would react when Moses pulled out his leprous hand? You have to give God more credit than that. I know how my wife would react if I pulled a beetle from my pocket, and also my kids' contrasting reaction. I think God knows us better than that.



Our salvation is not based on choice. If it was, nobody would go to Hell. Who would ever choose to burn? If I had to die, I would choose something much more comfortable.

Choices do not determine our destinty. Character determines our destiny.

Is character beyond our control? I don't think so. And I think you will agree.

Now apply this to the Israelites. You are suggesting that God didn't know how they would react to Moses. That means God didn't know what choices they would make. That means that, at that point, God couldn't say if any of them would be safe to save, i.e. would choose to be obedient forever. All this is based on the theory that our free will makes it impossible for God to accurately predict our future choices.

That has a huge impact on soteriology. Agree?



God's intelligence really is not relevant. We all know He's very sharp.

The question is, What kind of universe did He make? Is it one where effects are always determined by causes? Or is it one where events are linked by arbitrary mechanisms?

Events, even future events, are determined by the present actions of people. Actions are determined by choices, and choices character. That's how I see God's creation. It is a very orderly system, governed by countless cause and effect relationships (which finite minds may never fully understand).

Do you think "events" are just arbitrary occurences governed by chance? And hence, "cold" and separate from moral agents? If so, then I can see why you see a dichotomy.

But that is not the case. In fact, the conditional nature of prophecies, even salvation, highlights the order of God's universe. "If this, then that." If God tells us that the cause will result in the effect, that's because that's how He set things up. It is not based on God's arbitrary whims.

You sort of ignored my comments. I said Faith and trust sees the value of the person to make a judgment regardless of circumstances and choices, or otherwise the extent to which one can be entrusted with. Its the difference between knowing the person or knowing the events. Like you mentioned, God says "If" this then that; but there is the "if" which is dependent on the person to whom God has given the "if". To know which event will transpire is to say that there is no "if" given. So you cannot know the future as events when you allow for "if". A knowledge of future "events" "that will happen" therefore is cold because there is no "if". But if an "if" is given then the knowledge of the future is an "if".



Lack of faith is not romantic in the least.

What is that supposed to say? Did you not kind of flip there? You were proposing something "romantic", not something "not romantic".

What I am referring to is your contention that lack of knowledge is somehow virtuous; that knowledge is corrupt.

What I am contending against is a knowledge that does not allow for faith or love.

The difference is unwarranted. One does not have to choose between the two.

"If" is sometimes used to denote ignorance. For example, when I write a computer program, I use "if" statements so that the program can act accordingly, depending on what the user does, which I do not know ahead of time. If the user does something, the program will respond accordingly.

But "if" is sometimes used to denote conditions. God said, "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments." He wasn't guessing about the effects of love. The "if" means that it is up to the person to choose which condition he wants to fulfill, and consequently, which event will result.

Just because God gives someone a choice, does not mean that He has no clue what choice will be made. Knowledge of our characters gives Him a very accurate idea.