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Re: What is the Truth About The Foreknowledge of God?
[Re: Tom]
#86803
03/22/07 11:34 AM
03/22/07 11:34 AM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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Tom, The point I've been making is that if the future is such that only one thing can happen (for whatever reason), then that's the only thing that can happen. If there's only one thing that can happen, we can't choose to do something different than that thing. My choice was made having in view the weather, and the fact that God knew if I was going to the beach or not didn’t in any way affect my choice. This should be obvious. Another point I want to make is that according to your view all prophecies are conditional, including Christ’s death and resurrection.
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Re: What is the Truth About The Foreknowledge of God?
[Re: asygo]
#86804
03/22/07 11:37 AM
03/22/07 11:37 AM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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Our characters determine our choices, and God's accurate knowledge of Peter's character allowed Him to make an accurate prediction of Peter's choices. Arnold, Does God know our character before we are born? I’m asking this having in view a quote we discussed previously: “Jacob and Esau, the twin sons of Isaac, present a striking contrast, both in character and in life. This unlikeness was foretold by the angel of God before their birth. When in answer to Rebekah's troubled prayer he declared that two sons would be given her, he opened to her their future history, that each would become the head of a mighty nation, but that one would be greater than the other, and that the younger would have the pre-eminence” (PP 177.1).
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Re: What is the Truth About The Foreknowledge of God?
[Re: Rosangela]
#86815
03/22/07 03:23 PM
03/22/07 03:23 PM
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SDA Active Member 2023
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,607
California, USA
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Does God know our character before we are born? I think so. Isa 48:8 - Yea, thou heardest not; yea, thou knewest not; yea, from that time that thine ear was not opened: for I knew that thou wouldest deal very treacherously, and wast called a transgressor from the womb.
Jer 1:5 - Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations. That will surely impact our ideas of free will, but it is what it is.
By God's grace, Arnold
There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: What is the Truth About The Foreknowledge of God?
[Re: Tom]
#86818
03/22/07 04:03 PM
03/22/07 04:03 PM
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SDA Active Member 2023
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,607
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In this scenario, it was simply a case that Christ knew Peter better than he knew himself. It sounds like we're on the same page on this. I think so. Moving on to something else... I don't believe in a deterministic universe. Chaos theory and quantum mechanics seems to make it clear that God loves spontaneity and randomness. They are in the very building blocks of things. I think it's a wonderful thing that God is able to create things, even things without free will, which fill Him, the creator, with joy, so that He could say that they were "very good." Of course, when being capable of exhibiting free will enter the picture, this is even more the case. How do you reconcile that with "cause and effect" reasoning? That's on the other side of the fence from randomness. If Peter's free will had elements of randomness, he could have proclaimed his faith in Christ. Then God would have to scratch His head and say, "Whoa, I guess I spoke too soon." I don't know much about chaos theory, but it doesn't necessarily imply randomness. One little cause could certainly have great (and humanly unforeseen) effects. For example, though the part we play is exceedingly small, it is required to effect the miracle of the salvation of the soul. QM does strongly imply randomness. But the evidence is empirical and based on human limitations (as all physics is). It says nothing of divine knowledge. If QM applied universally, then randomness would impact our choices. How could God ever make definitive judgments about our character?
By God's grace, Arnold
There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: What is the Truth About The Foreknowledge of God?
[Re: asygo]
#86819
03/22/07 04:47 PM
03/22/07 04:47 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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QM deals with small changes, and Chaos theory could be thought of as amplifying the changes. For example, you've heard the saying that a butterfly flaps its wings in Africa and there's a hurricane across the ocean? The butterfly's flapping is a random event, which causes a disturbance in the air, which combined with other factors creates a bigger disturbance, and so forth. Small random events at just the right time can have unexpected large consequences.
Similarly, you do some small gesture for a person, who helps him/her, propelling them to do something nice for someone else, etc. As you put, our small influence can wind up in something great.
If one looks at the large picture, for example, weather patterns, one could predict that a hurricane will occur, because conditions are right, but there's no way of knowing which butterfly will flap its wings to get the thing going. Or which particle will start a chemical reaction is random, but it is known that the reaction will occur and how. Or when a fire is started, which spark gets it going is random, but it is known that a fire will start.
I don't know how well I'm explaining this, but I'm trying to communicate that randomness and cause and effect work together. Specific details can be random, but there is still cause and effect.
Regarding Peter, the effect of randomness upon free will would have more of an impact upon one who is standing on the fence. But Peter was settled in his self-sufficiency, so it could be known what would happen. The effect of randomness would effect something like how soon Peter would give way.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: What is the Truth About The Foreknowledge of God?
[Re: Tom]
#86820
03/22/07 04:54 PM
03/22/07 04:54 PM
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Active Member 2012
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Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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My choice was made having in view the weather, and the fact that God knew if I was going to the beach or not didn’t in any way affect my choice. This should be obvious. I know you and MM and Daniel make this point very frequently, but it really has nothing to do with what I've been trying to share. It's a mystery to me why you all keep wanting to make this point. My point has nothing to do with God's foreknowledge. It has to do with the simple fact that if the future is single-threaded, in that there is only one possible thing that can happen (which is what will happen), then our free will cannot logically mean that we are capable of doing either of several mutually exclusive alternatives. That should be obvious. Another point I want to make is that according to your view all prophecies are conditional, including Christ’s death and resurrection. Well, obviously if Christ had failed, that would have had an impact upon His resurrection. I recall EGW writing that the stone guarding His tomb would never have been removed. There is a conditional element to all prophesies which involve free will. If God is simply prophesying what He Himself will do, without there being any impediment caused by someone else's free will (which God will not violate), then of course He knows what He will do, and can tell us ahead of time.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: What is the Truth About The Foreknowledge of God?
[Re: Tom]
#86845
03/22/07 10:12 PM
03/22/07 10:12 PM
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Christ said Peter would deny Him three times. In other words, in order for Peter to deny Christ three times, Christ also knew that Peter would be challenged three times.
This not only involved Peter's choice to deny Him three times, but it also involved the choice by others to challenge Peter three times.
Unless foreknowledge is a fact in the sense of a TV-rerun, this seems kind of detailed and specific to me.
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Re: What is the Truth About The Foreknowledge of God?
[Re: Tom]
#86853
03/23/07 12:07 AM
03/23/07 12:07 AM
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SDA Active Member 2023
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,607
California, USA
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QM deals with small changes, and Chaos theory could be thought of as amplifying the changes. Bro Tom, Your examples do not exhibit true randomness. The butterfly's flapping wings and the particles in a chemical reaction are random to us only because we lack information. There in nothing in principle that says we cannot know these things. If we knew these things, and had the computational power to calculate the effects of physical laws on all particles involved, we can accurately predict the weather, chemical reactions, etc. Accurate weather forecasts is one of the proposed uses for future supercomputers. But because we do not have such fine-detailed information, and we do not have the resources to make the necessary calculations if we did, we only deal with aggregates. That's why they look random to humans. If we knew all the causes, we will know all the effects. These things are not really random. They just look random because of our ignorance. True random behavior is better exhibited by electrons in the double-slit experiment. Shoot one electron toward the slits, and we really have no idea where it's going to go. Even in principle, we do not know where it will go. Essentially, our current theories have no explanation of how the electron goes from one place to the other. And all our efforts to detect where the electron is along the journey have been fruitless. In principle, it is random. But as in the other examples, even here we know a lot about the aggregate. When we're talking trillions of electrons, we have a really good idea what they will do. But we know nothing about individual electrons. But that's from a human perspective. Our theories have been incomplete/wrong before, and we can certainly repeat that trick. It is very possible that God knows things that we don't. This becomes very important when we look at it theologically. Can we say that God knows what will happen with the aggregate, but not the individuals? He who knows how many hairs I lost in the shower this morning would certainly know the more important matter of my character. And with character come choices, actions, destiny.
By God's grace, Arnold
There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: What is the Truth About The Foreknowledge of God?
[Re: asygo]
#86854
03/23/07 12:17 AM
03/23/07 12:17 AM
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Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
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Arnold,
Does true randomness exist anywhere in the universe? If the answere is no, that would mean that sin wasnt random. But was it rational? Can irrationallity exist if every action has a cause? Wouldnt irrationallity together with randomness be just words we use for things we do not understand? Now, if these things above would be true, and sin be neither random nor irrational, wouldnt it then be both predictable and rational, maybe even unavoidable?
If all of those things would be true, could we then still say that God is good in any sence of the word? Why or why not?
Galatians 2 21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
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Re: What is the Truth About The Foreknowledge of God?
[Re: asygo]
#86872
03/23/07 11:23 AM
03/23/07 11:23 AM
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5500+ Member
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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R: Does God know our character before we are born? A: I think so. Arnold, I’m in perfect agreement, but this is because He sees things like in a re-run. Everybody, whatever his/her personality, circumstances, or inherited tendencies, can have a good or a bad character, depending on his/her choices. Not even identical twins have identical characters. Therefore God, without seeing things like in a re-run, would have no means of knowing, before we are born, if we will develop a good or a bad character.
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