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Re: Jesus took the risk of failure and eternal loss
[Re: Darius]
#86984
03/26/07 11:09 PM
03/26/07 11:09 PM
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SDA Active Member 2023
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,607
California, USA
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There is no question that Paul found it to be important. Here's another verse: Romans 6:5 - For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, More than important, Paul seems to have thought crucifixion was a condition for resurrection.
By God's grace, Arnold
There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: Jesus took the risk of failure and eternal loss
[Re: asygo]
#87005
03/27/07 03:03 AM
03/27/07 03:03 AM
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Active Member 2012
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Lawrence, Kansas
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The “risk” Sister White wrote about is purely hypothetical. The risk was real, not hypothetical. At least, as far as Ellen White is concerned. She wrote: The heart of the human father yearns over his son. He looks into the face of his little child, and trembles at the thought of life's peril. He longs to shield his dear one from Satan's power, to hold him back from temptation and conflict. To meet a bitterer conflict and a more fearful risk, God gave His only-begotten Son, that the path of life might be made sure for our little ones. "Herein is love." Wonder, O heavens! and be astonished, O earth! (DA 49) This is clearly not "hypothetical." She speaks of "a bitterer conflict," "a more fearful risk." What the conflict "hypothetical"? No. And neither was the risk. She also writes: Remember that Christ risked all. For our redemption, heaven itself was imperiled.(COL 196) If the risk God took in sending Christ were "hypothetical," then heaven could not have been "imperiled."
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Jesus took the risk of failure and eternal loss
[Re: asygo]
#87006
03/27/07 03:07 AM
03/27/07 03:07 AM
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Active Member 2012
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Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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MM, in general what you wrote about the risk being hypothetical, and there never being an instant when God did not know what would happen, doesn't make sense. If God always knew exactly what would happen, the risk would not be "hypothetical," but rather "non-existent."
In other words, what EGW should have written is: God did NOT send His Son at the risk of failure and eternal life. Remember, Christ did NOT risk all. Heaven was NOT imperiled for our redemption. This would agree with your assertions.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: What if Jesus had failed?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#87033
03/27/07 04:15 PM
03/27/07 04:15 PM
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Active Member 2012
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Lawrence, Kansas
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Since Jesus did not fail, it is pointless to ask "What if ...." This logic could be applied to any hypothetical question, couldn't it. That is, one could say regarding any hypothetical (e.g., if Chamberlain would have stood up to Hitler, what would have happened, "Since Chamberlain did not stand up to Hitler, it is pointless to ask 'What if'"), right? So you're basically saying that all hypothetical questions are pointless(?)
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: What if Jesus had failed?
[Re: Tom]
#87034
03/27/07 04:18 PM
03/27/07 04:18 PM
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Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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If God was uncertain as to whether or not Jesus would succeed on the cross He would not have consented to creating FMAs in the first place. If God were like you are I, you would be correct. But God's thoughts are higher than ours, and His ways higher than ours. The heart of the human father yearns over his son. He looks into the face of his little child, and trembles at the thought of life's peril. He longs to shield his dear one from Satan's power, to hold him back from temptation and conflict. To meet a bitterer conflict and a more fearful risk, God gave His only-begotten Son, that the path of life might be made sure for our little ones. "Herein is love." Wonder, O heavens! and be astonished, O earth!(DA 49) Never can the cost of our redemption be realized until the redeemed shall stand with the Redeemer before the throne of God. Then as the glories of the eternal home burst upon our enraptured senses we shall remember that Jesus left all this for us, that He not only became an exile from the heavenly courts, but for us took the risk of failure and eternal loss. Then we shall cast our crowns at His feet, and raise the song, "Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honor, and glory, and blessing." Rev. 5:12. From these quotes, one can see how the glories of divine love impact the heart. Yes, you are right, *we* would have not gone through with creation, *we* would not have taken the risk. But God *did*. He took a "more fearful risk." What was EGW's reaction to recognizing this: "Herein is love." Wonder, O heavens! and be astonished, O earth! What is the reaction of the redeemed in recognizing this? Then we shall cast our crowns at His feet, and raise the song, "Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honor, and glory, and blessing." Rev. 5:12.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Jesus took the risk of failure and eternal loss
[Re: vastergotland]
#87035
03/27/07 04:28 PM
03/27/07 04:28 PM
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Yeah, it's hard to imagine Jesus as an exile from heaven. His connection to the Father was dynamic. Their communion and fellowship was real and abiding. There is nothing about it that reminds me of an exile. Mat 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? Thomas, what do you think Jesus meant? 2T 209-211 Oh, was there ever suffering and sorrow like that endured by the dying Saviour! It was the sense of His Father's displeasure which made His cup so bitter. It was not bodily suffering which so quickly ended the life of Christ upon the cross. It was the crushing weight of the sins of the world, and a sense of His Father's wrath. The Father's glory and sustaining presence had left Him, and despair pressed its crushing weight of darkness upon Him and forced from His pale and quivering lips the anguished cry: "My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?" {2T 209.1} Jesus had united with the Father in making the world. Amid the agonizing sufferings of the Son of God, blind and deluded men alone remain unfeeling. The chief priests and elders revile God's dear Son while in His expiring agonies. Yet inanimate nature groans in sympathy with her bleeding, dying Author. The earth trembles. The sun refuses to behold the scene. The heavens gather blackness. Angels have witnessed the scene of suffering until they can look no longer, and hide their faces from the horrid sight. Christ is dying! He is in despair! His Father's approving smile is removed, and angels are not permitted to lighten the gloom of the terrible hour. They can only behold in amazement their loved Commander, the Majesty of heaven, suffering the penalty of man's transgression of the Father's law. {2T 209.2} Even doubts assailed the dying Son of God. He could not see through the portals of the tomb. Bright hope did not present to Him His coming forth from the tomb a conqueror and His Father's acceptance of His sacrifice. The sin of the world, with all its terribleness, was felt to the utmost by the Son of God. The displeasure of the Father for sin, and its penalty, which is death, were all that He could realize through this amazing darkness. He was tempted to fear that sin was so offensive in the sight of His Father that He could not be reconciled to His Son. The fierce temptation that His own Father had forever left Him caused that piercing cry from the cross: "My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?" {2T 209.3} Christ felt much as sinners will feel when the vials of God's wrath shall be poured out upon them. Black despair, like the pall of death, will gather about their guilty souls, and then they will realize to the fullest extent the sinfulness of sin. Salvation has been purchased for them by the suffering and death of the Son of God. It might be theirs, if they would accept of it willingly, gladly; but none are compelled to yield obedience to the law of God. If they refuse the heavenly benefit and choose the pleasures and deceitfulness of sin, they have their choice, and at the end receive their wages, which is the wrath of God and eternal death. They will be forever separated from the presence of Jesus, whose sacrifice they had despised. They will have lost a life of happiness and sacrificed eternal glory for the pleasures of sin for a season. {2T 210.1} Faith and hope trembled in the expiring agonies of Christ because God had removed the assurance He had heretofore given His beloved Son of His approbation and acceptance. The Redeemer of the world then relied upon the evidences which had hitherto strengthened Him, that His Father accepted His labors and was pleased with His work. In His dying agony, as He yields up His precious life, He has by faith alone to trust in Him whom it has ever been His joy to obey. He is not cheered with clear, bright rays of hope on the right hand nor on the left. All is enshrouded in oppressive gloom. Amid the awful darkness which is felt by sympathizing nature, the Redeemer drains the mysterious cup even to its dregs. Denied even bright hope and confidence in the triumph which will be His in the future, He cries with a loud voice: "Father, into Thy hands I commend My spirit." He is acquainted with the character of His Father, with His justice, His mercy, and His great love, and in submission He drops into His hands. Amid the convulsions of nature are heard by the amazed spectators the dying words of the Man of Calvary. {2T 210.2}
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Re: What if Jesus had failed?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#87044
03/27/07 05:01 PM
03/27/07 05:01 PM
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How does this all play out in the prophetic utterance of Genesis 3:15 that was uttered by God Himself? Gen. 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
Was this also an uncertain prophecy in relation to the risk factor?
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