This makes God just a better guesser than we are.

Where is it? Sorry, I'm packing things to move, so I'm not having much time to visit the several forums. Not even those where I'm a moderator!

The topic is called The Contradiction which is at the following link:

http://www.maritime-sda-online.org/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=84991

You're right, I should have done that. I guess I thought everyone would just see the new topic and know it had been continued from this one, but that was silly of me. It would have been much easier to have explained that from here.

Tom,

We all live and learn.

I didn't want this topic to be overtaken, as the question of how to determine if a prophecy is conditional is an interesting one.

The reason why God gives prophecies are to either encourage us when we are going the right direction and to warn us when we are going the wrong direction. Therefore none of the prophecys of God are unconditional. If you find a prophecy that is truely unconditional (and being written to sound on a superficial level as unconditional does not necessarly mean that they are unconditional) you can know that the prophecy did NOT come from God. Prophecy's purpose is to work with our choices.

But there are other facts that make things a little more complicated; the promises are also on the other hand not a flash in the dark and forgotten about if they do not come to pass. God sees the future and controls history. God knows the perfect time for the second coming, but God gives each generation the chance to either be the last generation, or to prepare for a generation or two later to be the last generation. God reveals what he sees will happen in principles found in current events of the people at the time He is revealing to. The conditional aspects are in the details of how and when they are fulfilled and in our relationship to the prophecys. To understand this better it is wise to learn about ancient cyclic thought (an excellent book is "Before Philosophy" By Henri Frankfort and others, 1946 [or 1941?]University of Chicago Press. Sadly out of print, but worth getting... one interesting aspect of this book for Adventists is that it explains what Desmond Ford says does not exist, the year-day principle.)

God promised to bring the Hebrews into the promiced land. They were lead to the promised land, were afraid to go in, so God lead them into the wilderness and gave the opputunity to the next generation. According to Deuteronomy 4, Jesus should have been born during the Babylonina Exile, as the exile was suposed to be THE LAST DAYS (Deut 4:30--some translations don't ephesise the prediction that the exile was to be the last days as clear as some others do).

Deuteronomy actually offers two prophectic pathways for God's people. One is staying in the land, being blessed, others wondering why these people are blessed and thus learn about God and nations either join with Israel, or reject the message and become enemies of Israel and come against to make a war where they are distroyed by the brightness of seeing God in person and their hearts failing them.

The second pathway was if they were unfaithful, God would give different curses to warn them and encourage change. If nothing worked, then they would have to go into exile, but Deuteronomy 4 predicted that the exile would be the last days. In exile they were to tell their neighbors about their unfaithfulness and God's faithfulness.

The land theology is basically "Stay in the land and the world will come to you" exile theology is "Go ye into all the world"

See "Destroyed for lack of knowlege" in Prophets and Kings and the "Role of Israel in Old Testament Prophecy" in the Seventh-day Adventist Bible Commentary to see these prophecys spelled out in clearer language that our presupositions tend to keep us from noticing when we read the texts.

Basically other prophecies are based on the Deuteronomic pathway, adding more details and making applications to current situations.

Isaiah 1-39 is the story of events of the people's unfaithfulness, then suddenly good king Hezekiah brings a reformation. Hezekiah gets ill, but prays for healing and is healed. The news of this healing brings representatives from Babylon. Hezekiah could have told about the God who healed him and the representatives could have brought the gospel to Babylon and instead of being the worst years of Hezekiah's life, they could have been the best. Instead of wicked King Manasseh, the way would have been prepared for good King Joshua. (Interestingly, according to the book "Lies My Teacher Taught Me" Israel's neighbors, sailors from Phoenicia, would occasionally sail over to what would latter be called the Americas. The ships were too small for major trade and frequent trips, but they could have carried over a few missionaries)God made the word ready for Hezekiah's reformation to spread to the whole world.

But instead of showing the Babylonians his true riches, he showed them his temporal riches. In stead of them taking home the true riches and preparing for Christ to rule the world, they decided they would return for the temporal riches and set up for those who were going to rule in place of Christ (or in Greek: Anti-Christ).

Starting in Isaiah 40 is the message about how the exile COULD have ended. The exodus was to cycle around and be lead by the Messiah to take God's people home to the promiced land. Daniel 1-6 is based on this view. Daniel 7 and 8 start to open the door that the exile may not end this way, and Daniel 9-12 is about returning in a lactluster return and setting up land theology for another 490 cycles to try to follow the plans of land theology. It also predicts what could have happened had Jesus been accepted when he came. It was only partially fulfilled and Jesus sent us back into Deuteronomy's exile theology sending us into all the world waiting for the great exodus when the Messiah comes to bring us home.

I hope this was not too confusing. If so please read "Destroyed for Lack of Knowlege" in Prophets and Kings, and "The Role of Israel in Old Testament Prophecy" in the Bible Commentary and Frankfort's "Before Philosophy" The combination of the three should make this clearer.

These are good points. I'd also add that God gives prophecy to demonstrate His faithfulness, His ability to do that which He has promised to do. I agree with you, that this is conditional, and would also add Paul's comment that the unfaithfulness of man does not make God unfaithful (viz. Romans 3:3, 4)

If all prophecies are conditional, so were those which spoke of Christ's first coming, and so are those which speak of Christ's second coming, and the millennium, and the new earth, and no second rise of sin.

Rosangela, Kevin covered your comment in detail. *That* Christ's coming would happen was not in question, but the details weren't set in stone, as Kevin pointed out. Iow, Christ could have come much earlier than He did, had the Hebrews responded positively to God's overtures at some previous point. Instead things played out according to the recalcitrant scenario. (Kevin points out a couple of other possibilities, from Deut. and Isaiah)