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Re: True Conversion Described [Re: asygo] #86903
03/23/07 09:34 PM
03/23/07 09:34 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
SDA
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Active Member 2019

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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
 Originally Posted By: asygo
 Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Jesus making up "for our unavoidable deficiencies" is not talking about Jesus making up for our sinful behaviour. Sinful habits are revealed, confessed, and crucified by the time we are born again. Yes, a person, like Luther, may not understand the truth about Sabbath-keeping and beer-drinking, but sins of ignorance fall under God's special umbrella.

For reasons that make sense to God, He chooses not to "expose" (SC 29) certain things to their sight. "And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent." (Acts 17:30)


Christ's robe of righteousness can never cover one cherished sin. But it can cover sins of ignorance.

Do you agree?

Yes, I agree. But what constitutes a sin of ignorance in the USA "now" in 2007? "And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent." (Acts 17:30)

Re: True Conversion Described [Re: Mountain Man] #86908
03/23/07 10:08 PM
03/23/07 10:08 PM
asygo  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,607
California, USA
 Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Yes, I agree. But what constitutes a sin of ignorance in the USA "now" in 2007? "And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent." (Acts 17:30)


That verse does not mean that sins of ignorance were eradicated in the 1st century, does it? One possible example is EGW eating oysters thousands of years after they were prohibited.

My kids, 9 and 5, to this day struggle with sins of ignorance. After years of study, to this day, I am pretty sure that I have much to unlearn. The more I know of Christ's holiness, the more I know of my depravity. And the more I see how my depravity often sneaks up on me.

But of course, not all sins of ignorance are covered. Willful ignorance is condemned.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: True Conversion Described [Re: asygo] #86920
03/24/07 02:15 AM
03/24/07 02:15 AM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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A: That verse does not mean that sins of ignorance were eradicated in the 1st century, does it?

MM: Paul was speaking to people who worshiped the "Unknown God". Of these people God was no longer willing to wink at their ignorance. When we include Rom 2:13-16 with Acts 17:30, 31 it seems to me sins of ignorance were eliminated. True, they made a come back during the Dark Ages.

A: After years of study, to this day, I am pretty sure that I have much to unlearn. The more I know of Christ's holiness, the more I know of my depravity. And the more I see how my depravity often sneaks up on me.

MM: Do you suspect you have sinful habits of which you are ignorant? If so, why hasn't God revealed them to you?

A: But of course, not all sins of ignorance are covered. Willful ignorance is condemned.

MM: Amen!

Re: True Conversion Described [Re: Mountain Man] #87039
03/27/07 04:49 PM
03/27/07 04:49 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA

Re: True Conversion Described [Re: Mountain Man] #87049
03/27/07 05:16 PM
03/27/07 05:16 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Why is it assumed (this seems to me to be what's assumed in my reading here) that Paul was concerned about sinful habits rather than Christ? In reading Paul's writings, in particular Romans and Galatians, it seems to me that Christ was Paul's overriding concern. Am I off base?


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: True Conversion Described [Re: Tom] #87051
03/27/07 05:27 PM
03/27/07 05:27 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Posts: 22,256
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Paul was equally concerned about not sinning. So is God.

Matthew
1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

1 John
3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Re: True Conversion Described [Re: Mountain Man] #87061
03/27/07 06:02 PM
03/27/07 06:02 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
"Paul was equally concerned with not sinning." This assertion is followed by statements by Matthew and John. That's an interesting methodology.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: True Conversion Described [Re: Mountain Man] #87094
03/28/07 02:20 AM
03/28/07 02:20 AM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,607
California, USA
 Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Do you suspect you have sinful habits of which you are ignorant? If so, why hasn't God revealed them to you?


Obviously, I can't give a specific example of something of which I am ignorant. But let's take diet as a hypothetical example.

I eat soy products regularly. As far as I know, that's not destroying my health. But it might turn out that it is detrimental to my health. As soon as I find out, I would no longer be ignorant. But as of today, if it is bad for me, I am ignorant of it.

Let's say that it is bad for me. Why would God not tell me today? One possibility is that maybe I am not educated enough to know what I would replace it with. So if I gave it up immediately, which is what I need to do as soon as I find out it's bad, I might starve to death. Maybe God doesn't want to kill me off just yet.

So, He teaches me. But my slow mind cannot absorb information as fast as others. Therefore, while I'm learning, He keeps the information from me so I don't starve.

That's one example. Based on the many things that God has taught me over the years, I will be very surprised if He didn't have more in store for me. But I know one thing: When I was baptized almost 25 years ago, I didn't know all that I know now. In fact, the more I learn, the more I'm convinced of my ignorance.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: True Conversion Described [Re: Tom] #87104
03/28/07 01:42 PM
03/28/07 01:42 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
 Originally Posted By: Tom Ewall
"Paul was equally concerned with not sinning." This assertion is followed by statements by Matthew and John. That's an interesting methodology.

Did you overlook "So is God"? The point is God is concerned about us not sinning. You seem to downplay it.

Re: True Conversion Described [Re: Mountain Man] #87105
03/28/07 01:59 PM
03/28/07 01:59 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Arnold, I do not consider your soy example an example of a sinful habit that God is choosing not to reveal to you because you are too "slow" to confess and crucify.

The reason I am asking you this question is because some people argue that God does not reveal to us certain of our sinful cultivated habits (traits, practices, propensities) because He does not want to overwhelm us with too much information about ourselves, that He waits until we are ready to give them up.

For example, a person may struggle with being impatient with his loved ones (siblings, parents, spouse, children, etc), but because this particular sinful habit is so ingrained God, in mercy, chooses not to reveal it to him. So the family suffers patiently while they wait for God to make him aware of it.

What do you think?

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