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Re: True Conversion Described [Re: Mountain Man] #87401
04/02/07 02:23 PM
04/02/07 02:23 PM
Tom  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
TE: God is certainly concerned with our sinful habits, because sin will kill us. However, His primary concern is that we know and love Him. This will take care of the problem we have with sinful habits.

MM: I'm not so sure His primary concern excludes our sinful habits.

It doesn't. His primary concern is that we know and love God. That is the only thing that can overcome our sinful habits. Focusing primarily on our sinful habits is not the road to victory. Focusing on Christ is.

I believe salvation concerns many things. All of the above are equally important. Or, do you still think knowing the love of God is more important than not sinning?

Knowing the love of God is the only path to not sinning. Love is the fulfillment of the law. Love is awakened by love.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: True Conversion Described [Re: Tom] #87407
04/02/07 02:51 PM
04/02/07 02:51 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Tom, this is what I hear you saying - "Don't worry about sin. Love God and you will cease sinning."

"This goody-goody religion that makes light of sin and that is forever dwelling upon the love of God to the sinner, encourages the sinner to believe that God will save him while he continues in sin and he knows it to be sin. This is the way that many are doing who profess to believe present truth."

 Quote:
"A new heart will I give you and a new spirit will I put within you." I believe with all my heart that the Spirit of God is being withdrawn from the world, and those who have had great light and opportunities and have not improved them, will be the first to be left. They have grieved away the Spirit of God. The present activity of Satan in working upon hearts, and upon churches and nations should startle every student of prophecy. The end is near. Let our churches arise. Let the converting power of God be experienced in the heart of the individual members, and then we shall see the deep moving of the Spirit of God. Mere forgiveness of sin is not the sole result of the death of Jesus. He made the infinite sacrifice not only that sin might be removed, but that human nature might be restored, rebeautified, reconstructed from its ruins, and made fit for the presence of God. . . . {3SM 154.1}

Christ is the ladder which Jacob saw whose base rested on the earth and whose topmost round reached the highest heavens. This shows the appointed method of salvation. We are to climb round after round of this ladder. If any one of us shall finally be saved, it will be by clinging to Jesus as to the rounds of a ladder. Christ is made unto the believer wisdom and righteousness, sanctification, and redemption. . . . {3SM 154.2}

There will be some terrible falls by those who think they stand firm because they have the truth; but they have it not as it is in Jesus. A moment's carelessness may plunge a soul into irretrievable ruin. One sin leads to the second, and the second prepares the way for a third and so on. We must as faithful messengers of God, plead with Him constantly to be kept by His power. If we swerve a single inch from duty we are in danger of following on in a course of sin that ends in perdition. There is hope for every one of us, but only in one way--by fastening ourselves to Christ, and exerting every energy to attain to the perfection of His character. {3SM 154.3}

This goody-goody religion that makes light of sin and that is forever dwelling upon the love of God to the sinner, encourages the sinner to believe that God will save him while he continues in sin and he knows it to be sin. This is the way that many are doing who profess to believe present truth. The truth is kept apart from their life, and that is the reason it has no more power to convict and convert the soul. There must be a straining of every nerve and spirit and muscle to leave the world, its customs, its practices, and its fashions. . . . {3SM 155.1}

If you put away sin and exercise living faith, the riches of heaven's blessings will be yours.--Letter 53, 1887. {3SM 155.2}

Re: True Conversion Described [Re: Mountain Man] #87412
04/02/07 03:20 PM
04/02/07 03:20 PM
Tom  Offline
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Think of it this way, MM. Love is the fulfilling of the law, right? And love cannot be commanded, it can only be awakened by love.

 Quote:
Only by love is love awakened. To know God is to love Him.(DA 22)


Our only hope to obey the law of God is to know God. To know God is life eternal. To know God is to love God. To love is to fulfill the law.

The importance of knowing the love of God cannot be overestimated. It's not "goody-goody," but the only possible solution. Apart from the knowing the love of God, the best we can hope for is to be Pharisees.

Look at Paul's prayer in Ephesians:

 Quote:
For this reason I kneel before the Father, from whom his whole family in heaven and on earth derives its name. I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being, so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, may have power, together with all the saints, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ, and to know this love that surpasses knowledge—that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God. (Eph. 3:14-19)


Here's yet another way of seeing this truth. When the Pharisees went to Christ to ask Him what they needed to do to do the works of God, He responded, "This is the work of God, that you believe on Him whom He has sent."

In John 3:16, Jesus explained to Nicodemus that God so loved the world that He gave His only Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life. Just previous, vs. 15, He explained that Jesus needed to be lifted up, as the serpent in the desert was, indicated that belief was based on the principle of "look and live".

 Quote:
How, then, are we to be saved? "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness," so the Son of man has been lifted up, and everyone who has been deceived and bitten by the serpent may look and live.(DA 175)


We live by looking! We behold the lamb of God, and in so doing are transformed by the love of God. This leads to the faith response by which we receive the righteousness of Christ.

Here is another passage from the Spirit of Prophecy that explains the principle:

 Quote:
God is love. Like rays of light from the sun, love and light and joy flow out from Him to all His creatures. It is His nature to give. His very life is the outflow of unselfish love.

"His glory is His children's good;
His joy, His tender Fatherhood."

He tells us to be perfect as He is, in the same manner. We are to be centers of light and blessing to our little circle, even as He is to the universe. We have nothing of ourselves, but the light of His love shines upon us, and we are to reflect its brightness. "In His borrowed goodness good," we may be perfect in our sphere, even as God is perfect in His.

Jesus said, Be perfect as your Father is perfect. If you are the children of God you are partakers of His nature, and you cannot but be like Him. (MB 77, 78)


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: True Conversion Described [Re: Mountain Man] #87418
04/02/07 04:11 PM
04/02/07 04:11 PM
asygo  Offline
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Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,607
California, USA
 Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
A: Ignorant sins are those things we do that are not in full congruence with God's character, but for whatever reason, we don't yet know any better. But here's the crucial thing to remember: these are never due to our lack of desire to obey. These are unavoidable deficiencies.

MM: Good point. Would you lump being impatient with family members in this category of sinning? That is, can a converted believer be impatient without realizing it?


It is possible. But it's almost impossible to say for sure if it applies in any particular case.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: True Conversion Described [Re: asygo] #87469
04/03/07 02:13 PM
04/03/07 02:13 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Tom, arguing against the idea that God is just as concerned about us not sinning as He is about us loving Him is counter productive. Do you agree? I am not arguing against loving God as the source of obeying Him. I am arguing against the idea that God is not just as concerned about us not sinning, about ridding us our sinful habits.

The description of true conversion provided at the beginning of this thread does not allow for the idea that God waits to "expose to our sight" (SC 29) certain of our sinful habits, that is, our moral imperfections (as opposed to our intellectual imperfections, such as Sabbath keeping, diet reform, etc, things we must learn about about, things we do not know instinctively).

Re: True Conversion Described [Re: Mountain Man] #87471
04/03/07 02:23 PM
04/03/07 02:23 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
SDA
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Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Arnold, at what point in the life of born again people are they aware of their sinful behavior? Will they continue to be ignorant of certain forms of impatient outbursts until the day they die? Why are they ignorant of the times they abuse their loved ones? What causes them to be ignorant? Does the Holy Spirit choose not to reveal it to them? When is the following insight true of them?

HP 144
Those who are obedient to the will of God will not have a hard and miserable time in this life. Hear again the words of Christ: "These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full" (verse 11). This is the witness which it is the privilege of all to have--the joy of Christ in the soul through appropriating the word of God . . . and bringing the requirements of Christ into the practical life. There is full assurance of hope in believing every word of Christ, believing in Him, being united to Him by living faith. When this is his experience, the human being is no longer under the law, for the law no longer condemns his course of action. . . . {HP 144.4}

To them that believe, Christ is precious. His Spirit moving upon the mind and heart of the believer is in perfect agreement with that which is written in the Word. The Spirit and the Word agree perfectly. Thus the Spirit beareth witness with our spirit that we are born of God. {HP 144.5}

Re: True Conversion Described [Re: Mountain Man] #87474
04/03/07 02:40 PM
04/03/07 02:40 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Tom, arguing against the idea that God is just as concerned about us not sinning as He is about us loving Him is counter productive. Do you agree? I am not arguing against loving God as the source of obeying Him.

But you never mention it. There's nothing in your posts about how to achieve the victory over sin you are proclaiming (at least, I haven't seen anything). The victory can only come by love, because love is the fulfilling of the law. The commandments are summed up by the word "love." We are to love as we have been loved. Unless we are moved by the love of God, how can we love?

John wrote that we love because He first loved us. Love was the focal point of John's message, of Paul's. We understand what love is by the revelation of Jesus Christ. Beholding Christ is the way, the only way, to victory.


I am arguing against the idea that God is not just as concerned about us not sinning, about ridding us our sinful habits.

The description of true conversion provided at the beginning of this thread does not allow for the idea that God waits to "expose to our sight" (SC 29) certain of our sinful habits, that is, our moral imperfections (as opposed to our intellectual imperfections, such as Sabbath keeping, diet reform, etc, things we must learn about about, things we do not know instinctively).

You haven't understood her emphasis. It's no different than John's or Paul's, or, most importantly, of Jesus Christ's. Take a look at the quote from "Thoughts from The Mount of Blessing" I quoted in the previous post. This is dealing with the admonition by Christ, "Be ye perfect as your Heavenly Father is perfect."

What is the means to perfection? The principles are laid out in that quote.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: True Conversion Described [Re: Mountain Man] #87487
04/03/07 04:29 PM
04/03/07 04:29 PM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,607
California, USA
 Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Arnold, at what point in the life of born again people are they aware of their sinful behavior?


God will show them each item when the time is right. We don't know exactly what that time is for each person and for each item, but whenever that is, the person can no longer claim ignorance.

More later.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: True Conversion Described [Re: Mountain Man] #87492
04/03/07 07:26 PM
04/03/07 07:26 PM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,607
California, USA
 Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Will they continue to be ignorant of certain forms of impatient outbursts until the day they die?


I don't think so. Since judgment is by works, I am inclined to believe that, before one dies, his works must match his faith.

 Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Why are they ignorant of the times they abuse their loved ones? What causes them to be ignorant?


The darkness from which some have been saved is very far from the light to which we must go. It takes time to get from one to the other.

For example, did you ever realize that anything short of a whole-hearted health reform is abusing your loved ones? Or another way of looking at it, willing unhealthiness is self murder.

It took me a while to realize that. Why? Because I was so busy with weightier matters, such as verbal and emotional abuse, self-justification, self-reliance, etc.

Remember that thread a while back on eating ice cream? How long did it take you to realize that abusing yourself is equivalent to abusing your loved ones?

 Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Does the Holy Spirit choose not to reveal it to them?


Yes. Character development is much like gardening. You take care of the 6-foot weeds before you stress about the 1-inch weeds.

 Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
When is the following insight true of them?


When the Holy Spirit is done leading them into all truth.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: True Conversion Described [Re: asygo] #87510
04/04/07 08:29 AM
04/04/07 08:29 AM
C
crater  Offline
Veteran Member
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 989
United States
I have been reading on conversion in DA and COL. One of the things that stood out to me is this from COL: A profession of faith and the possession of truth in the soul are two different things. The mere knowledge of truth is not enough. We may possess this, but the tenor of our thoughts may not be changed. The heart must be converted and sanctified.

 Quote:
COL   As the leaven, when mingled with the meal, works from within outward, so it is by the renewing of the heart that the grace of God works to transform the life. No mere external change is sufficient to bring us into harmony with God. There are many who try to reform by correcting this or that bad habit, and they hope in this way to become Christians, but they are beginning in the wrong place. Our first work is with the heart. {COL 97.1}
     A profession of faith and the possession of truth in the soul are two different things. The mere knowledge of truth is not enough. We may possess this, but the tenor of our thoughts may not be changed. The heart must be converted and sanctified. {COL 97.2}
The man who attempts to keep the commandments of God from a sense of obligation merely--because he is required to do so--will never enter into the joy of obedience. He does not obey. When the requirements of God are accounted a burden because they cut across human inclination, we may know that the life is not a Christian life. True obedience is the outworking of a principle within. It springs from the love of righteousness, the love of the law of God. The essence of all righteousness
                                                                            98
is loyalty to our Redeemer. This will lead us to do right because it is right--because right doing is pleasing to God. {COL 97.3}
 Quote:
Jesus continued: "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." By nature the heart is evil, and "who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one." Job 14:4. No human invention can find a remedy for the sinning soul "The carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be." "Out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies." Rom. 8:7; Matt. 15:19. The fountain of the heart must be purified before the streams can become pure. He who is trying to reach heaven by his own works in keeping the law is attempting an impossibility. There is no safety for one who has merely a legal religion, a form of godliness. The Christian's life is not a modification or improvement of the old, but a transformation of nature. There is a death to self and sin, and a new life altogether. This change can be brought about only by the effectual working of the Holy Spirit. . . .

Page 176
world." John 1:29. The light shining from the cross reveals the love of God. His love is drawing us to Himself. If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour. Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul. The thoughts and desires are brought into obedience to the will of Christ. The heart, the mind, are created anew in the image of Him who works in us to subdue all things to Himself. Then the law of God is written in the mind and heart, and we can say with Christ, "I delight to do Thy will, O my God." Ps. 40:8.

Not through controversy and discussion is the soul enlightened. We must look and live. Nicodemus received the lesson, and carried it with him. He searched the Scriptures in a new way, not for the discussion of a theory, but in order to receive life for the soul. He began to see the kingdom of heaven as he submitted himself to the leading of the Holy Spirit.

There are thousands today who need to learn the same truth that was taught to Nicodemus by the uplifted serpent. They depend on their obedience to the law of God to commend them to His favor. When they are bidden to look to Jesus, and believe that He saves them solely through His grace, they exclaim, "How can these things be?"

Like Nicodemus, we must be willing to enter into life in the same way as the chief of sinners. Than Christ, "there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved." Acts 4:12. Through faith we receive the grace of God; but faith is not our Saviour. It earns nothing. It is the hand by which we lay hold upon Christ, and appropriate His merits, the remedy for sin. And we cannot even repent without the aid of the Spirit of God. The Scripture says of Christ, "Him hath God exalted with His right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins." Acts 5:31.Repentance comes from Christ as truly as does pardon.
How, then, are we to be saved? "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness," so the Son of man has been lifted up, and everyone who has been deceived and bitten by the serpent may look and live. "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the
Page 176
world." John 1:29. The light shining from the cross reveals the love of God. His love is drawing us to Himself. If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour. Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul. The thoughts and desires are brought into obedience to the will of Christ. The heart, the mind, are created anew in the image of Him who works in us to subdue all things to Himself. Then the law of God is written in the mind and heart, and we can say with Christ, "I delight to do Thy will, O my God." Ps. 40:8.


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