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Re: What is the Truth About The Foreknowledge of God?
[Re: asygo]
#87042
03/27/07 04:55 PM
03/27/07 04:55 PM
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The way Arnold sees it is exactly how I also see it.
I also see it as "won't" rather than "can't" for the very reason that God sees what he "won't" do, not what he "can't" do.
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Re: What is the Truth About The Foreknowledge of God?
[Re: Rosangela]
#87045
03/27/07 05:08 PM
03/27/07 05:08 PM
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SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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R: Does God know our character before we are born? A: I think so. Arnold, I’m in perfect agreement, but this is because He sees things like in a re-run. Everybody, whatever his/her personality, circumstances, or inherited tendencies, can have a good or a bad character, depending on his/her choices. Not even identical twins have identical characters. Therefore God, without seeing things like in a re-run, would have no means of knowing, before we are born, if we will develop a good or a bad character. I also agree. God knows the future like a rerun. Such foreknowledge or hindsight does not rob us of our ability or freedom to choose. God knows in advance what we will or will not do. He is God; He knows the end from the beginning. He inhabits eternity.
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Re: What is the Truth About The Foreknowledge of God?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#87054
03/27/07 05:33 PM
03/27/07 05:33 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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The way Arnold sees it is exactly how I also see it.
I also see it as "won't" rather than "can't" for the very reason that God sees what he "won't" do, not what he "can't" do. Can we do something that God sees won't happen? Logically we can't, correct? (because if we did, then something which God saw would happen wouldn't, which is impossible). So saying that we cannot do something which God see won't happen is logically correct. Changing the word "can't" to "won't" doesn't change the veracity of the assertion. If the assertion is false, please produce a counter example.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: What is the Truth About The Foreknowledge of God?
[Re: asygo]
#87055
03/27/07 05:39 PM
03/27/07 05:39 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Right. Because the will is the governing power in the nature of man, you cannot do what you will not do. But the inability is not inherent in nature, nor is it dictated by God's foreknowledge; it is determined by Thomas' free will choice. This sounds like determinism. If you have time, please take a look at the following: http://www.ccel.org/ccel/edwards/will.ii.v.html The link to the book is the following (http://www.ccel.org/ccel/edwards/will.toc.html). I took you to a specific spot which deals with the question at hand, since the book is quite long. Anyway, the link I gave above discusses a definition of free will, which is the deterministic one. I can ask the question this way. Which of the following do you see as defining free will? a.One is free to do what one pleases. b.One can do either of more than one mutually exclusive events. Your statement (quoted above), is sounding like a. to me. If that is the case, then you are correct that there isn't a logical problem. The logical problem comes up if one holds to b. as the definition of free will. Daryl, if you're reading this, I'd be curious as to your answer to this question as well (i.e., which defines free will, a or b)?
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: What is the Truth About The Foreknowledge of God?
[Re: Tom]
#87056
03/27/07 05:46 PM
03/27/07 05:46 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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I also agree. God knows the future like a rerun. Such foreknowledge or hindsight does not rob us of our ability or freedom to choose. It's not God's knowledge, whatever you wish to call it ("hindsight" is a really weird choice of words for describing a knowledge of the future) which robs us of our ability to do something which He has seen will happen (or happened, I guess, to be consistent with "hindsight"), but our inability to affect the future (or past, if you prefer). It's not that God *knows* what we will do which causes the problem (take God's foreknowledge of out the picture, and the problem identically remains), but the fact that there is only one possible future which can happen. I've explained this many, many times to you MM, and have never gotten any indication that you have understood what I'm saying.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: What is the Truth About The Foreknowledge of God?
[Re: asygo]
#87064
03/27/07 06:32 PM
03/27/07 06:32 PM
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Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
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It's not possible that Thomas could do something different than what God has known for all eternity with 100% certainty will happen, correct? Right. Because the will is the governing power in the nature of man, you cannot do what you will not do. But the inability is not inherent in nature, nor is it dictated by God's foreknowledge; it is determined by Thomas' free will choice. But I can. With true free will, a man can do what he would never in a thousand years want to do. As an example, with a very small exception, no people would ever want to jump neck deep into human excrement. Yet we know that in desperate circumstances, people have done exactly that. It was never their will to go swimming in the poop, but they did anyhow.
Galatians 2 21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
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Re: What is the Truth About The Foreknowledge of God?
[Re: vastergotland]
#87072
03/27/07 07:03 PM
03/27/07 07:03 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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But I can. With true free will, a man can do what he would never in a thousand years want to do. This is exactly what I was referring to in the Jonathan Edwards link. I should have made this more clear. This is precisely the point that is in question. Can one only do that which one wills to do? Determinists (or, more accurately, those who believe in compatibilistic free will) say, "yes." Libertarians say, "no."
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: What is the Truth About The Foreknowledge of God?
[Re: Tom]
#87079
03/27/07 08:34 PM
03/27/07 08:34 PM
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My answer is "a.One is free to do what one pleases."
God's foreknowledge doesn't affect this answer whatsoever.
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Re: What is the Truth About The Foreknowledge of God?
[Re: Daryl]
#87081
03/27/07 08:54 PM
03/27/07 08:54 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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That's true, Daryl, but choice a) is not what SDA's have traditionally believed ( that would be choice b) ).
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: What is the Truth About The Foreknowledge of God?
[Re: Tom]
#87088
03/27/07 09:44 PM
03/27/07 09:44 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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The second view is called incompatibilistic (or libertarian) free will (adopted by Arminians), which is the ability to freely choose to do an action, even though that same person under the same circumstances could’ve chosen to do differently.(http://adebateontheproblemofevil.blogspot.com/2007/01/nature-and-value-of-free-will.html) later adopted Arminianism and it has become the theological position of Methodism and the Wesleyan tradition. It was propogated in America through the revivalism of Charles Finney and the burgeoning Methodist movement. It is also found today in other denominations such as the Nazarene, the Pentecostal, the Assemblies of God, the Churches of Christ, the Seventh-day Adventist and many Baptist groups. (http://www.theopedia.com/Arminianism) The first quote above addresses the point that Arminian free will is libertarian (or incompatibilistic). Free will is defined as being able to do either of more than one mutually exclusive events. The second quote addresses that the SDA tradition is Arminian (not Calvinistic). Calvinistic ideas have come into the church in about the last 60 years or so.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Here is the link to this week's Sabbath School Lesson Study and Discussion Material: Click Here
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