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Re: Jesus took the risk of failure and eternal loss [Re: Darius] #87128
03/28/07 04:58 PM
03/28/07 04:58 PM
Daryl  Online Canadian

Site Administrator
23000+ Member
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 25,132
Nova Scotia, Canada
Darius,

A new topic was created out of your last post here and was moved into another forum of MSDAOL.

As far as this topic goes, for those of us who believe the Bible to be the inspired Word of God through the various authors of the Bible, Romans 5:10 refutes your statement.

You can't choose from the Bible what you like and reject what you don't like, or refutes your own cherished beliefs.

If you don't accept Paul's writings as part of the inspired Word of God, then your participation in this topic is no longer credible.


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
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Re: Jesus took the risk of failure and eternal loss [Re: Daryl] #87145
03/28/07 06:55 PM
03/28/07 06:55 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
 Quote:
How were we reconciled to God? Romans 5:10 says "by the death of his Son."


This needs some explanation. If you say simply that we were reconciled by the death of His Son, then everyone would be reconciled, right? Reconciliation requires participation on our part, doesn't it? So you're in danger of chopping off the verse to say something Paul was not intending it looks to me.

We reconciled by faith, aren't we? Doesn't faith need to come into play somewhere? You can't just take a portion of verse of Paul and make conclusions based on that, without taking into account what else Paul has written, can you? Wouldn't that be picking what you want, the very thing you said we can't do?


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Jesus took the risk of failure and eternal loss [Re: Tom] #87186
03/29/07 11:03 AM
03/29/07 11:03 AM
Darius  Offline OP
Dedicated Member
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,163
Muncie, IN
Daryl, I don't choose on the basis of likes and dislikes. I choose on the basis of what models reality. When Gen. 1 tells me that the earth and water existed before God said let there be light on the first day of creation I have no choice but to conclude that what follows cannot be considered to be a play by play account of the creation of the universe.

Last edited by Darius; 03/29/07 11:05 AM.

Darius A. Lecointe, J.D., Ph.D.
No weapon formed against me shall prosper.
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Re: Jesus took the risk of failure and eternal loss [Re: Tom] #87188
03/29/07 12:11 PM
03/29/07 12:11 PM
Daryl  Online Canadian

Site Administrator
23000+ Member
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 25,132
Nova Scotia, Canada
 Originally Posted By: Tom Ewall
 Quote:
How were we reconciled to God? Romans 5:10 says "by the death of his Son."


This needs some explanation. If you say simply that we were reconciled by the death of His Son, then everyone would be reconciled, right? Reconciliation requires participation on our part, doesn't it? So you're in danger of chopping off the verse to say something Paul was not intending it looks to me.

We reconciled by faith, aren't we? Doesn't faith need to come into play somewhere? You can't just take a portion of verse of Paul and make conclusions based on that, without taking into account what else Paul has written, can you? Wouldn't that be picking what you want, the very thing you said we can't do?

Tom,

I didn't define who the "we" consisted of, or didn't consist of. I assumed the reader already knew that. I am simply going by what Paul stated in that vese in Romans 5:10. If you want to add more to it, go to it, but it was clearly stated by Paul in that text that "we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son." Using other texts, for example, John 3:16, I would say that the "we" in Romans 5:10 is the "whosoever" in John 3:16. The "God so loved the world" part shows that it has been offered to the whole world. Only the whosoever in the world that responds will benefit eternally.


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
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Re: Jesus took the risk of failure and eternal loss [Re: Daryl] #87189
03/29/07 12:18 PM
03/29/07 12:18 PM
Daryl  Online Canadian

Site Administrator
23000+ Member
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 25,132
Nova Scotia, Canada
After re-reading the numerous posts here, it seems that we have strayed away from the topic, therefore, unless somebody can connect these numerous posts to the topic, I will soon be making a new topic from the point where it seems we have strayed from the topic.


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
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Re: Jesus took the risk of failure and eternal loss [Re: Daryl] #87198
03/29/07 01:27 PM
03/29/07 01:27 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
 Quote:
I didn't define who the "we" consisted of, or didn't consist of. I assumed the reader already knew that. I am simply going by what Paul stated in that verse in Romans 5:10. If you want to add more to it, go to it, but it was clearly stated by Paul in that text that "we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son." Using other texts, for example, John 3:16, I would say that the "we" in Romans 5:10 is the "whosoever" in John 3:16. The "God so loved the world" part shows that it has been offered to the whole world. Only the whosoever in the world that responds will benefit eternally.


Your statement was incomplete, which is what I was pointing out. It's not sufficient to say "I assumed the reader already knew that." What you are assuming is precisely what's being questioned.

You state (actually Paul stated) that we were reconciled by the death of Christ. What does that mean? Without a discussion as to what that means, it's impossible to use that phrase as a rebuttal to what Darius wrote; it could be that it means the same thing Darius is saying! (I'm not saying this is the case, but without knowing what the phrase means, it's a possibility).


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Jesus took the risk of failure and eternal loss [Re: Tom] #87200
03/29/07 01:36 PM
03/29/07 01:36 PM
Darius  Offline OP
Dedicated Member
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,163
Muncie, IN
It is the belief that Jesus had to die and live perfectly in order to save mankind that introduces the idea of risk. In fact it was a simple case of living so that His true nature could be revealed to His human creation who had been deceived as to His true nature. There was never a risk that He would not be who He was. This is why the enemy wanted to kill Him as a baby so that He could not live out His life on earth. There was no risk involved in the rescue of the human race. Positing that there was is as close to an insult of the Creator as there could be.


Darius A. Lecointe, J.D., Ph.D.
No weapon formed against me shall prosper.
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Re: Jesus took the risk of failure and eternal loss [Re: Darius] #87212
03/29/07 02:37 PM
03/29/07 02:37 PM
Daryl  Online Canadian

Site Administrator
23000+ Member
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 25,132
Nova Scotia, Canada
In relation to the attempt to prematurely kill Him, that could never have happened as the timing of His death in accordance with the 70 week, 490 year prophecy, had not yet arrived. As the lamb that was sacrificed represented or prefigured Christ, He had to die the exact moment that the lamb was scheduled to be sacrificed.

 Quote:

When the loud cry, "It is finished," came from the lips of Christ, the priests were officiating in the temple. It was the hour of the evening sacrifice. The lamb representing Christ had been brought to be slain. Clothed in his significant and beautiful dress, the priest stood with lifted knife, as did Abraham when he was about to slay his son. With intense interest the people were looking on. But the earth trembles and quakes; for the Lord Himself draws near. With a rending noise the inner veil of the temple is torn from top to bottom by an unseen hand, throwing open to the gaze of the multitude a place once filled with the presence of God. In this place the Shekinah had dwelt. Here God had manifested His glory above the mercy seat. No one but the high priest ever lifted the veil separating this apartment from the rest of the temple. He entered in once a year to make an atonement for the sins of the people. But lo, this veil is rent in twain. The most holy place of the earthly sanctuary is no longer sacred. {DA 756.5}

All is terror and confusion. The priest is about to slay the victim; but the knife drops from his nerveless hand, and the lamb escapes. Type has met antitype in the death of God's Son. The great sacrifice has been made. The way into the holiest is laid open. A new and living way is prepared for all. No longer need sinful, sorrowing humanity await the coming of the high priest. Henceforth the Saviour was to officiate as priest and advocate in the heaven of heavens. It was as if a living voice had spoken to the worshipers: There is now an end to all sacrifices and offerings for sin. The Son of God is come according to His word, "Lo, I come (in the volume of the Book it is written of Me,) to do Thy will, O God." "By His own blood" He entereth "in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us." Heb. 10:7; 9:12. {DA 757.1}

Without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sin. IN order to pay the penalty for our sins, Christ had to die, and He did die for the whole world.

I do find it interesting though that even though EGW uses the word "risk", I do not see such a word or thought expressed in the Sciptures, therefore, seeing that we ae to harmonize the writings of EGW with the Sciptures, we had better take another look at what the word "risk" really means in her writings.


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
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Re: Jesus took the risk of failure and eternal loss [Re: Daryl] #87213
03/29/07 02:41 PM
03/29/07 02:41 PM
Darius  Offline OP
Dedicated Member
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,163
Muncie, IN
Obviously you are going to hold on to what you believe regardless. Please explain how you kill an immortal God.


Darius A. Lecointe, J.D., Ph.D.
No weapon formed against me shall prosper.
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Re: Jesus took the risk of failure and eternal loss [Re: Darius] #87219
03/29/07 04:24 PM
03/29/07 04:24 PM
Daryl  Online Canadian

Site Administrator
23000+ Member
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 25,132
Nova Scotia, Canada
I am not referring to the killing of Christ in His divinity, but to the killing of Christ in His humanity, therefore, we are not going to go in that direction.


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
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