No, I didn't overlook it. I expected you to respond similarly to what you did. My point was specifically about Paul, however, since Paul is the one that had previously been quoted. If one wishes to jump around Scripture, or Ellen White, for that matter, looking for "proof texts" on this or that subject, one can construct just about any theology under the sun.

Returning to my main point, which is that Paul's overriding concern was Christ, I note that Ellen White (to switch authors) writes:



This is saying the same thing I am. You are taking things out of context to present Paul, or John (or anyone other inspired author) as being primarily concerned with sinful habits, rather than about Christ.

I see this subject is very important to you, because it is what you emphasize above all others. I am by no means saying that it is not an important subject, but it is not the most important subject. The most important subjects have to do with God's character and His love for us. The whole sin problem is encompassed by our not understanding and believing the truth about Him.

It was for this purpose that Christ came. The "whole purpose" of his earthly life was to reveal God to us. It is only as we understand this truth that we can have any hope of overcoming sin.

We need to put the horse before the cart!

Just to clarify, the truly converted will never be too slow to confess and crucify. For the converted, confession is immediate, and crucifixion constant.

What is often slow is comprehension.

But if soy is killing me, then eating it is breaking the commandment. Right? My ignorance of the facts does not change them one bit. Just like the guy who got run over by the bus because he wasn't looking is just as dead as the one who jumped in front of it on purpose.

Isn't that sinful? Well, if sin is defined as a willful breaking of the law, then it is not. But if ignorance was all it took to be sinless, then we should stop all evangelism and study.

But if sin is objectively defined as the transgression of God's law, then killing yourself, ignorantly or purposefully, is sin.



My soy example would fall under practices. But maybe you have something a bit more "moral" in mind.

How about keeping the Sabbath holy? Have you ever encountered the argument that it's better to go to a restaurant for Sabbath lunch rather than "work" so hard to prepare meals? I used to do that.

Then I was convicted that I should neither buy nor sell on the Sabbath. So you know what I did? I stopped going to restaurants immediately. Except for one. My father owned a restaurant which was open on the Sabbath, so I went there and got my meal for free. Slick, huh?

A few months later, our youth pastor pointed out to me that I was still making the employees work for me on the Sabbath. I had never thought about that. But after a few seconds of thought, it was clear to me. So, I stopped going there also. (BTW, that concept has far-reaching applications, well beyond restaurants.)

How about speaking the truth without love? Have you ever met one of those new converts, who is so excited about the truths he has recently learned? Then he goes to all his smoker friends and bashes them about how they're killing themselves. He goes to his Sunday-keeping friends and tells them how they're bowing down to the Beast every week. He preaches to parents how negligent they have been for neglecting to train their children in the way they should go. Have you ever met one of those? I used to meet one in the bathroom everyday.

This one took much longer to hammer out than the Sabbath lunch issue. In fact, I'm pretty sure that I have not yet completely come out of the woods on this one. I still have difficulty figuring out when to speak, how to speak, and what to speak.

If God showed me everything I had to fix all at once, I'm guessing that the pile will be so big that I will fix none. I think the SOP passage has been already quoted.

But God does not wait until we are ready to give them up. He works on us all the time so that we become ready to give them up. That could be teaching us how to cook without soy. Or opening our understanding of the Sabbath command. Or teaching us tact by dragging us through certain experiences.

But one thing to keep in mind. The truly converted is always ready to give up anything God tells him he should give up. Immediately. That's part of the deal when one dies to self.

Martin speaks:


Ellen speaks:

TE: This is saying the same thing I am. You are taking things out of context to present Paul, or John (or anyone other inspired author) as being primarily concerned with sinful habits, rather than about Christ.

MM: Why did you add the word "primarily"? Sinning crucifies Christ afresh. Everything God is doing to redeem us from sin, self, and Satan centers around saving us from sinning. Jesus demonstrated the loving character of God in a winsome way. The love of God motivates us to keep our eyes on Jesus. The results of abiding in Jesus are many fold, two of which are 1) we do not sin, and 2) we mature in the fruits of the Spirit. Both of which testify to the truthfulness of God's claims.

Arnold, I think I understand what you're getting at. Sins of ignorance have to do with intellectual matters, not with moral ones. The person who doesn't realize they are breaking the Sabbath is morally innocent. But the person who goes around thumping people over the head with a Bible because they are smoking is not innocently ignorant. They are kicking againsst the pricks. The Holy Spirit is pleading with them to cease and desist, but they are plowing ahead like a crazy person.

What is the difference between moral and mental knowledge and awareness?

Crater, where do you stand? Do people experience the miracle of rebirth while they are ignorant of certain of their sinful habits? Please explain. Thank you.

TE: This is saying the same thing I am. You are taking things out of context to present Paul, or John (or anyone other inspired author) as being primarily concerned with sinful habits, rather than about Christ.

MM: Why did you add the word "primarily"?

Because that conveys the idea I wished to express. Had I written "You are taking things out of context to present Paul, or John (or anyone other inspired author) as being concerned with sinful habits," this would have conveyed a different idea.

God is certainly concerned with our sinful habits, because sin will kill us. However, His primary concern is that we know and love Him. This will take care of the problem we have with sinful habits.

Sinning crucifies Christ afresh. Everything God is doing to redeem us from sin, self, and Satan centers around saving us from sinning. Jesus demonstrated the loving character of God in a winsome way. The love of God motivates us to keep our eyes on Jesus. The results of abiding in Jesus are many fold, two of which are 1) we do not sin, and 2) we mature in the fruits of the Spirit. Both of which testify to the truthfulness of God's claims.

The problem I am addressing is one of focus. You focus on sinful habits. That approach just doesn't work. What does work is to focus on Christ.

When we perceive the love of God shining from the cross, that love has the power to motivate us to follow Christ.

Christ revealed to us what God is really like. Through Christ we see a Being who is unbelievably kind, gracious, merciful, patient, compassionate, ... the list goes on and on. Christ was the most marvelous human being anyone could ever hope to meet. And He was God!

That God is so wonderful should fill our hearts with praise, and be the subject of our thoughts and conversations. As we deepen in our love for God, and appreciation for His character, our hatred for sin will grow, and we will find ever more victory over sin; not just the outward visible signs of sinful habits, but deep down to the roots of pride and selfishness; unwillingness to recognize error, hardness of heart, lack of compassion, etc.

Maybe, but not exactly.

Sin is always a moral issue. Intellectual and physical shortcomings are never considered sin. Let me try to give a short summary.

God's law defines His requirements. Those requirements do not change because they are a transcript of His character, which does not change. Therefore, regardless of my personal knowledge or ignorance, the law remains.

Any event that is not in full congruance with God's character - His law - is breaking the law. Any variance from God's character is sin. This is the objective definition of sin.

Before conversion, our characters are at variance with God's and in congruance with Satan's. The unconverted are not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. They do not know God's law, and if they did, they do not want to conform to it, and if they did, cannot conform to it. That's 3 things: lack of knowledge, desire, and ability to meet the demands of the law. You can think of those are roughly corresponding to the intellectual, spiritual, and physical aspects of man.

Conversion is, by definition, change. What changes? The most dramatic change, and perhaps the primary change that happens upon conversion, is a change in the spriritual nature of man. The spirit is resurrected. This manifests itself in a radical change in attitude: The law that was once odious to him is now his meditation all day long. God's character is now the goal to be reached. Therefore, all willful sins are non-existent in the truly converted. In this sense, he is sinless - the subjective definition of sin.

But intellectually and physically, there are still deficiencies galore. The convert is not as smart as he can be, and he is not as strong as he can be. There is still work to be done.

Ignorant sins are those things we do that are not in full congruence with God's character, but for whatever reason, we don't yet know any better. But here's the crucial thing to remember: these are never due to our lack of desire to obey. These are unavoidable deficiencies.

As the potter starts with a lump of clay and slowly turns it into a useful vase, so God starts where we are and slowly turns is into His image. Though some parts of the process are instantaneous (putting the clay on the wheel/forsaking known sin), most of it takes time (parts being pressed and pulled/revealing of unknown sin).

Good thing I kept is short, huh?

The mystery of rebirth is definitely a miracle. I believe the Comforter, Holy Sprit convicts us of sin. There may be sin that we are ignorant of of but as Jesus is more deeply reveled to us, we will no longer fashion ourselves according to the lust that we were formerly ignorant.


In thinking about rebirth my thoughts turn to the 3rd chapter of John and the conversation between Jesus and Nicodemus.

I had never before considered to whom Jesus was speaking to at the time, when he said, what are most likely, his most quoted words, in verse 16. "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

Ellen explains rebirth and the process of putting away of sin so beautifully, in the chapter on Nicodemus in The Desire of Ages 171-173. I am sure you are very familiar with it, but I just have to quote her. I so appreciate the example that the Saviors set in his kindness and gentleness in presenting these truths the the proud Pharisee.

TE: God is certainly concerned with our sinful habits, because sin will kill us. However, His primary concern is that we know and love Him. This will take care of the problem we have with sinful habits.

MM: I'm not so sure His primary concern excludes our sinful habits. I believe salvation concerns many things. All of the above are equally important. Or, do you still think knowing the love of God is more important than not sinning?

A: Ignorant sins are those things we do that are not in full congruence with God's character, but for whatever reason, we don't yet know any better. But here's the crucial thing to remember: these are never due to our lack of desire to obey. These are unavoidable deficiencies.

MM: Good point. Would you lump being impatient with family members in this category of sinning? That is, can a converted believer be impatient without realizing it?

C: The mystery of rebirth is definitely a miracle. I believe the Comforter, Holy Sprit convicts us of sin. There may be sin that we are ignorant of of but as Jesus is more deeply reveled to us, we will no longer fashion ourselves according to the lust that we were formerly ignorant.

MM: Paul listed a bunch of sinful habits and desires in Galatians 5:16-21, which one(s) do you think born again believers retain after they are converted, that is, ignorantly, which the Holy Spirit waits to convict them of until they are more ready to face them and crucify them?