"He sees the most remote events of past history and the far distant future with as clear a vision as we do those things which are transpiring daily."

We see realities in the present. If you see the horse fall and break his leg and lose the race, this is it. If you go to the beach, you go to the beach. If God sees the future as we see the present, how can He see only possibilites in the future?

A small correction - I should have said in my previous post, "This is so real that the prophets sometimes do not know if what they saw was past or future."

It seems to me clear that EGW is dealing with the clarity with which God sees the future. For example, she wrote in another of the quotes you listed, "The present and the future are equally clear to Him." I think she's saying the same thing in the other quote. That is, it's not an ontological statement regarding the future, but a statement as to the clarity with which God sees things.

In considering EGW's viewpoint in this regard, we need to remember the other statements she has made which inform us regarding the nature of the future. For example, she said that heaven was imperiled for our redemption. That's quite a statement! This doesn't fit with the idea the future is such that God can perceive it as if it were a T.V. rerun in a single threaded fashion (i.e. one T.V. program vs. many T.V. programs). If all heaven was imperiled, then there was a possibility of failure. But view of the future you are proposing wouldn't allow for heaven being imperiled, since God would have known that heaven was in no danger.

Similarly statements regarding Christ being at risk, the timing of Christ's coming being changeable, and so forth, must be considered in coming to a conclusion as to the nature of the future.

Tom, the Bible nowhere intimates that God does not know the future like the past, like a rerun. The SOP is the only inspired source that employs a risk concept. However, she does not go on to conclude it means God does not know the future like the past, like a rerun. That is a conclusion you came to.

It is clear the SOP in no way contradicts the Bible. It is also clear, therefore, she did not intend for us to assume the risk concept she introduced means God does not know the future like the past, like a rerun. The Bible is full of unconditional prophecies. But the only way God can tell us precisely what is going to happen before it happens is if He knows the future like the past, like a rerun.

MM, I referred you to a 367 page book which provides evidence that God, in Scripture, takes risks. There is plenty of evidence in Scripture that God does not see the future like a T.V. rerun. I've already mentioned several places.

According to your view, the future for God is not at all clear, but nebulous - made up only of several possibilities and no certainty.
The present is clear to me because I see realities. How can you say that the future is as clear to God as the present is clear to me, if He sees only possibilities?

Tom,

The EGW quotes that Rosangela presented here is clear enough to me, and has removed any doubt in my mind about God's ability to see the future even better than we see the present, for we can't even see and understand the present, and not even the past, in the way that God can see the past, the present, and the future.

As far as the "risk" factor goes in the EGW quotes, they need to be read and understood in relation to how God sees the future, not the other way round.

Daryl, what is unclear about the following:



It's amazing to me that anyone would find this difficult to understand. What do you think "heaven itself was imperiled" means?

Tom:It seems to me clear that EGW is dealing with the clarity with which God sees the future.

R:According to your view, the future for God is not at all clear, but nebulous - made up only of several possibilities and no certainty.

No, that's not my view. I'll try to explain it clearly.

The future is comprised of a combination of certainties and uncertainties. Where God takes actions Himself, there is certainty. Also there are natural laws in effect, which God, of course, understands perfectly, and these are certainties as well. In addition, one's character may be so fixed that God knows what a person will do. For example, Satan has become such a slave to sin that God can predict his actions. Plus there are times when one has a certain bent of character that God knows what a person will do, just as we know what a spouse will do in certain situations, just because we know them so well.

Where uncertainties come into place are where free will is concerned, and where the decisions to be made by free will creatures is up in the air, to some extent.

So the future is comprised of a combination of certainties and uncertainties, all of which God sees perfectly and knows perfectly.

The present is clear to me because I see realities.

Sort of. That is, you perceive realities to some extent. But certainly not perfectly. Not was well as God does. God's perception is perfect. People make mistakes about what they see all the time.

How can you say that the future is as clear to God as the present is clear to me, if He sees only possibilities?

I didn't say that. I said the future is more clear to God than the present is to you. He sees things better than you do. God can see things which might be just as well as He sees things that are. He's not at all limited in His ability to see hypothetical things clearly.

Here's a simple example. A good chess player can see hypothetical situations ("if the opponent does this, and I do that, then the board will look like this ...") just as clearly as he sees the reality (what the board looks like right now). Indeed, elite players can play blindfolded, even many games at once. God, who is not limited in intelligence, sees hypothetical situations just as clearly as He sees reality. The future is just as clear to Him as the present. He is not dependent upon a thing being a reality in order to see it clearly, just as chess player doesn't need to see the pieces on the board to visualize what will happen (only more so; chess players can make mistakes, but God's foresight is perfect).

God sees perfectly and knows perfectly the uncertainties? How, if they are uncertainties? How can God, for instance, allow someone to die unsaved today, if He does not know if that person would accept Him in the future or not? If God has doubts in relation to the future, and if He can be surprised by the future, how can He see it and know it perfectly?


I’m using “you” generically. It’s Ellen White who says this.
But let’s leave the present aside. She also says that the past and the future are alike with God. When someone dies, God knows if that person died saved or unsaved, and God knows all the choices that person made during his life. But if our future choices are uncertain to God, how can the past and the future be alike with Him?

Tom,

You seem to thrive on the "risk" aspect of the EGW quotes, but ignore the clear "alike" in reference to the past, present, and future in the following quote:


Why is that, Tom?

I would call that selective quoting in which you ignore one quote in favour of the other as it goes contrary to your belief system.