MM: The description of true conversion provided at the beginning of this thread does not allow for the idea that God waits to "expose to our sight" (SC 29) certain of our sinful habits, that is, our moral imperfections (as opposed to our intellectual imperfections, such as Sabbath keeping, diet reform, etc, things we must learn about about, things we do not know instinctively).

TE: You haven't understood her emphasis.

MM: Tom, arguing against the idea that God is just as concerned about us not sinning as He is about us loving Him is counter productive. Do you agree? All of the inspired writers wrote about recognizing and resisting sin, self, and Satan as a means to an end. Keeping our sinful habits under control and preventing them from resurfacing is just as important as maturing in the fruits of the Spirit. Do you agree?

MM: Arnold, at what point in the life of born again people are they aware of their sinful behavior?

A: God will show them each item when the time is right. We don't know exactly what that time is for each person and for each item, but whenever that is, the person can no longer claim ignorance.

MM: Are you saying people are born again with their sinful habits in tact?

……………………

MM: Will they continue to be ignorant of certain forms of impatient outbursts until the day they die?

A: I don't think so. Since judgment is by works, I am inclined to believe that, before one dies, his works must match his faith.

MM: Does this apply to the thief on the cross? If so, did he overcome all of his sinful habits before he died?

………………………

MM: Does the Holy Spirit choose not to reveal it to them?

A: Yes. Character development is much like gardening. You take care of the 6-foot weeds before you stress about the 1-inch weeds.

MM: I think we both agree there is a difference between instinctive (moral) knowledge and acquired (mental) knowledge. For example, the first four commandments must be learned after we are born, whereas, the last six are known instinctively from birth. As such a person can experience rebirth in relation to what is known instinctively and not understand truths like Sabbath keeping and health reform.

With the distinctions between moral and mental truths in mind, do you think the Holy Spirit waits to reveal to people, in light of the cross, their moral imperfections? Also, with the following pre-conversion description in mind, which moral imperfections does the Holy Spirit wait to reveal until after rebirth?

SC 29
One ray of the glory of God, one gleam of the purity of Christ, penetrating the soul, makes every spot of defilement painfully distinct, and lays bare the deformity and defects of the human character. It makes apparent the unhallowed desires, the infidelity of the heart, the impurity of the lips. The sinner's acts of disloyalty in making void the law of God, are exposed to his sight, and his spirit is stricken and afflicted under the searching influence of the Spirit of God. He loathes himself as he views the pure, spotless character of Christ. {SC 29.1}

Crater, you posted the following quotes. In light of the question reposted above, what do you think?

1. The Christian's life is not a modification or improvement of the old, but a transformation of nature. There is a death to self and sin, and a new life altogether. This change can be brought about only by the effectual working of the Holy Spirit.

2. The light shining from the cross reveals the love of God. His love is drawing us to Himself. If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour. Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul. The thoughts and desires are brought into obedience to the will of Christ. The heart, the mind, are created anew in the image of Him who works in us to subdue all things to Himself. Then the law of God is written in the mind and heart, and we can say with Christ, "I delight to do Thy will, O my God." Ps. 40:8.

MM: The description of true conversion provided at the beginning of this thread does not allow for the idea that God waits to "expose to our sight" (SC 29) certain of our sinful habits, that is, our moral imperfections (as opposed to our intellectual imperfections, such as Sabbath keeping, diet reform, etc, things we must learn about about, things we do not know instinctively).

TE: You haven't understood her emphasis.

MM: Tom, arguing against the idea that God is just as concerned about us not sinning as He is about us loving Him is counter productive.

It doesn't look like you've understood my emphasis either.

Do you agree? All of the inspired writers wrote about recognizing and resisting sin, self, and Satan as a means to an end.

Christ is the end of the law to righteousness for all who believe. He is the way, or, synonymously, the mean to the end.

Keeping our sinful habits under control and preventing them from resurfacing is just as important as maturing in the fruits of the Spirit. Do you agree?

What I was addressing is that love is the fulfilling of the law. Without the love of God in our hearts, we cannot fulfill the law. The only way to have the love of God is to know God, because love cannot be commanded; it can only be awakened. Therefore our emphasis, as Sister White points out, needs to be on Christ and Him crucified, because this is where we see, as nowhere else, the love of God revealed.

Being fixated on sinful behavior as a means to an end is the same error the Pharisees made. When they asked Jesus what they should to do to the works of God, He answered, "This is the work of God, that you believe on Him whom He has sent."

"A profession of faith and the possession of truth in the soul are two different things. The mere knowledge of truth is not enough. We may possess this, but the tenor of our thoughts may not be changed. The heart must be converted and sanctified." The more that I read on the subject of rebirth and true conversion the more I am wondering how many of us are truly converted in the heart not just in the mind? When we don't have the daily living connection with God is when we get in to trouble. We need to have what Jesus had with the Father.



Lets list "Paul's list sinful habits and desires":


I suppose each person has different habits and weakness that would be different then another but perhaps verse 26 list things that are a bit more subtil.

MM: Keeping our sinful habits under control and preventing them from resurfacing is just as important as maturing in the fruits of the Spirit. Do you agree?

TE: What I was addressing is that love is the fulfilling of the law. Without the love of God in our hearts, we cannot fulfill the law. The only way to have the love of God is to know God, because love cannot be commanded; it can only be awakened. Therefore our emphasis, as Sister White points out, needs to be on Christ and Him crucified, because this is where we see, as nowhere else, the love of God revealed.

MM: I agree with you. But your answer does not address my question, which was – “Keeping our sinful habits under control and preventing them from resurfacing is just as important as maturing in the fruits of the Spirit. Do you agree?” IOW, not sinning and maturing in the fruits of the Spirit are equally important.

TE: Being fixated on sinful behavior as a means to an end is the same error the Pharisees made.

MM: Who said anything about fixating on sinful behavior? Focusing on not sinning and maturing in the fruits of the Spirit is not the same thing as fixating on sinful behavior. You seem to think it means neglecting Jesus. Why?

TE: When they asked Jesus what they should to do to the works of God, He answered, "This is the work of God, that you believe on Him whom He has sent."

MM: True. But that is not all Jesus had to say about the subject, right? The point is – Jesus is just as concerned about us not sinning as He is about us maturing in the fruits of the Spirit. But you do not seem to agree. Why?

John
5:14 Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.

John
8:10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?
8:11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

Certainly, many sinful habits will have been eliminated. But there will be other habits that remain. People are not born again only after they become perfect.

But though sinful habits may be there, they are not intact. The foundation of selfishness is torn down upon conversion.

Crater: The more that I read on the subject of rebirth and true conversion the more I am wondering how many of us are truly converted in the heart not just in the mind?

MM: You are not alone. Sister White wrote:

6BC 1075
The new birth is a rare experience in this age of the world. This is the reason why there are so many perplexities in the churches. Many, so many, who assume the name of Christ are unsanctified and unholy. They have been baptized, but they were buried alive. Self did not die, and therefore they did not rise to newness of life in Christ (MS 148, 1897). {6BC 1075.7}

C: When we don't have the daily living connection with God is when we get in to trouble. We need to have what Jesus had with the Father.

MM: Amen!

DA 664
Jesus revealed no qualities, and exercised no powers, that men may not have through faith in Him. His perfect humanity is that which all His followers may possess, if they will be in subjection to God as He was. {DA 664.4}

C: I suppose each person has different habits and weakness that would be different then another but perhaps verse 26 list things that are a bit more subtil.

MM: True. But Paul lists specific sinful habits that truly born again believers, born again in heart and mind, do not practice any more. They are tempted, yes, but they do not give in. They keep the sinful clamorings of their fallen flesh under control. We shall have to battle against our internal foes until the day Jesus returns and replaces our sinful flesh with a sinless one. The clamorings of sinful flesh, however, do not constitute sinning. They are only temptations and, as you know, it is not a sin to be tempted, even when the temptation originates within us.

AH 127, 128
The lower passions have their seat in the body and work through it. The words "flesh" or "fleshly" or "carnal lusts" embrace the lower, corrupt nature; the flesh of itself cannot act contrary to the will of God. We are commanded to crucify the flesh, with the affections and lusts. How shall we do it? Shall we inflict pain on the body? No; but put to death the temptation to sin. The corrupt thought is to be expelled. Every thought is to be brought into captivity to Jesus Christ. All animal propensities are to be subjected to the higher powers of the soul. The love of God must reign supreme; Christ must occupy an undivided throne. Our bodies are to be regarded as His purchased possession. The members of the body are to become the instruments of righteousness. {AH 127.2}

1T 423
[Satan] excites the organs which lead to slavish fears and jealousies which corrupt nobleness of soul and destroy elevated thoughts and feelings. (1T 423)

RH 3-27-1888
There are thoughts and feelings suggested and aroused by Satan that annoy even the best of men; but if they are not cherished, if they are repulsed as hateful, the soul is not contaminated with guilt, and no other is defiled by their influence. (RH 3-27-1888)

MM, I have never thought of ranking maturing in the Spirit viz a viz not sinning. It reminds me of the old Miller Lite commercial. "Not sinning!" "Maturing in the spirit!" The whole idea of comparing these in importance strikes me as bizarre.

This question has nothing whatsoever to do with what I was talking about, as far as I can tell. My point was that the only way to victory of sin (i.e. not sinning) is to know God, because to know God is to love Him, and only by love is love awakened.

Therefore our primary focus should not be on "not sinning" but on Jesus Christ, and the love of God which was revealed through Him.

Regarding your question, I would say they are both important.

A: Certainly, many sinful habits will have been eliminated. But there will be other habits that remain. People are not born again only after they become perfect.

MM: I agree. But given everything the Bible and the SOP say about moral perfection that's why I keep coming back to the difference between moral and mental sinful habits. I understand "perfection" is two fold. Born again believers 1) Begin perfect (complete), and 2) Become perfect (mature). But which type of sinful habits, moral or mental, are overlooked prior to rebirth, and why?

A: But though sinful habits may be there, they are not intact. The foundation of selfishness is torn down upon conversion.

MM: Are you referring to the "internal foes" which "strive for the mastery" quoted in my last post to Crater? What do you mean by not "intact"?