Arnold, is God responsible for perpetuating immorality when He chooses to wait to reveal to people that certain behaviors are sinful?

Also, does God make a distinction between intentional sins and sins of ignorance so far as guilt and accountability and salvation are concerned? If so, why and what?

Is it really true that there is no moral difference between willful sinning and sinning ignorantly?

Yes, IF He WAITED. But He doesn't wait. He is constantly WORKING toward eradicating our immorality.

But it is a delicate job. If the process of leading one toward perfection fails for any reason, then immorality is perpetuated until it is eradicated in the Lake of Fire.



Yes, there is a difference. Sins of ignorance have a long list of sacrifices in Leviticus for its atonement. Intentional sins, for the most part, were atoned for by stoning.

Guilt and accountability are concepts which I find nearly useless in considering. It's what I call the "Not Me Syndrome," commonly found in kids who yell, "Not me!" when you ask, "Who did this?" The focus is not on pleasing God, but on saving our necks. I don't ask, "Am I guilty for this?" Rather, I ask, "Does this please God?" As long as everything I think, say, and do are pleasing to God, I figure all is fine.

But if you really want to talk about accountability, OK. Christ's sacrifice covers ALL sins. Known sins are covered when we confess and repent, which is then followed by cleansing from all unrighteousness. Sins of ignorance, for those who have no known sins left, are covered by His blood until they become known. At that point, they must be IMMEDIATELY confessed, repented of, and forsaken. Christ covers our ignorant sins, but not our cherished sins.



That's not true, as I clarified above, hopefully.

All sins, known or ignorant, cost Christ's blood. If our goal is to please God, then our overriding concern is to cease ALL sin.

If our goal is only to avoid accountability or guilt, then we don't have to worry about ignorant sins. But then, we never worry about ignorant sins because, by definition, we are ignorant of them. We are unable to consider that which we do not know.

But there is something VERY important to realize. If our concern is to be cleared of guilt, with no regard for God's pleasure, then WE ARE LOST. That is selfishness at its core, and will not find happiness in the presence of God.

I agree with Arnold's point regarding selfishness.

Bump.

A: Yes, IF He WAITED. But He doesn't wait. He is constantly WORKING toward eradicating our immorality. But it is a delicate job. If the process of leading one toward perfection fails for any reason, then immorality is perpetuated until it is eradicated in the Lake of Fire.

MM: I agree God doesn’t wait to reveal to us, in light of the cross, our moral imperfections, but I thought we also we agreed that God does, at times, wait to reveal certain of our mental or intellectual sins of ignorance.

For example, God doesn’t wait until after we are born again to reveal to us, in light of the cross, how our moral imperfections (known sins) violate the Ten Commandments (minus the fourth). But God may wait until after we are born again to reveal to us our mental or intellectual imperfections (unknown sins), namely, that we are violating the Sabbath or diet and dress reform.

Do you see what I mean? I am saying that no one is ignorant of breaking the last six commandments. Not even the heathens who have never heard of Jesus or the Bible. Everyone is born with a conscious and instinctive knowledge of what is morally right and wrong as defined by the last six commandments. The first four must be learned through Bible study and prayer.

Thus, God does not have to wait to reveal to people how their moral imperfections (known sins) violate the last six commandments. The difference, however, during the process of converting to obeying everything Jesus commanded is that people see for the first time their moral imperfections (known sins) in light of the cross. This knowledge makes all the difference in the world.

Again, I thought we both agreed that God does at times wait to reveal to people until after they are born again their mental imperfections (unknown sins), that He waits until they are ready to accept the truth. He doesn’t want to blow them away. In fact, in many cases He never did reveal all of their mental sins (unknown sins).

A: Yes, there is a difference. Sins of ignorance have a long list of sacrifices in Leviticus for its atonement. Intentional sins, for the most part, were atoned for by stoning.

MM: Good point.

A: Guilt and accountability are concepts which I find nearly useless in considering. It's what I call the "Not Me Syndrome," commonly found in kids who yell, "Not me!" when you ask, "Who did this?" The focus is not on pleasing God, but on saving our necks. I don't ask, "Am I guilty for this?" Rather, I ask, "Does this please God?"

MM: Amen!

A: As long as everything I think, say, and do are pleasing to God, I figure all is fine.

MM: Do you ever worry about the possibility that you are still sinning ignorantly, that God hasn’t chosen to reveal everything to you?

A: But if you really want to talk about accountability, OK. Christ's sacrifice covers ALL sins.

MM: I suppose you mean all of the sins that have been confessed and forsaken and forgiven.

A: Known sins are covered when we confess and repent, which is then followed by cleansing from all unrighteousness.

MM: I agree.

A: Sins of ignorance, for those who have no known sins left, are covered by His blood until they become known. At that point, they must be IMMEDIATELY confessed, repented of, and forsaken.

MM: I agree sins of ignorance are covered so long as people are living up to the light they believe is true and right. I suppose that is what you mean by “for those who have no known sins left”. That is, they have no known sins left that they have refused to confess and crucify.

A: Christ covers our ignorant sins, but not our cherished sins.

MM: I agree.

A: All sins, known or ignorant, cost Christ's blood. If our goal is to please God, then our overriding concern is to cease ALL sin.

MM: Amen!

A: If our goal is only to avoid accountability or guilt, then we don't have to worry about ignorant sins. But then, we never worry about ignorant sins because, by definition, we are ignorant of them. We are unable to consider that which we do not know.

MM: True. But do we agree on what constitutes sinning ignorantly? That is, do you agree with what I posted above about being born with a conscious and instinctive knowledge of what is morally right and wrong as defined by the last six commandments?

A: But there is something VERY important to realize. If our concern is to be cleared of guilt, with no regard for God's pleasure, then WE ARE LOST. That is selfishness at its core, and will not find happiness in the presence of God.

MM: Amen!

I don't worry about it because I'm sure there's a lot of sins still in me. I don't worry about things which I'm sure about.

Yes. Living according to all light available -> no known sins left -> all ignorant sins covered.

Here's an unqualified statement: All who are born of God never indulge in known sins, not even once.



No, I don't think I agree with your distinction. I will elaborate when I have more time later.

All sin is a form of selfishness - self-love. But conversion, at the most fundamental level, is a change from selfishness to selflessness. So, the root of all sinful habits - selfishness - is removed upon conversion. Therefore, even though certain sinful habits might still be there, they are being eliminated because their root is gone.

A: I don't worry about it because I'm sure there's a lot of sins still in me. I don't worry about things which I'm sure about.

MM: When do you expect to stop believing you are sinning ignorantly because God is waiting to reveal it to you?

Also, can you think of an example of an unrevealed, unknown moral imperfection (not an intellectual imperfection) that a born again believer would refuse to confess and crucify if Jesus revealed it to him too soon?

I understand there are certain doctrines, like the Sabbath and diet and dress reform that some believers might reject out of ignorance, because they weren’t convinced of the truth when it was presented to them, but would they reject it if they were convinced, if they believed it was true and right?

If so, what does that say about the nature of their rebirth? In other words, if someone is the type of person who is willing to reject the truth when they are convinced it is true and right, can it be said of them that they are safe to save, that they are truly, genuinely born again?

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A: Here's an unqualified statement: All who are born of God never indulge in known sins, not even once.

MM: Wow! Can you back that up with inspired statements?

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A: “…do you agree with what I posted above about being born with a conscious and instinctive knowledge of what is morally right and wrong as defined by the last six commandments?” No, I don't think I agree with your distinction. I will elaborate when I have more time later.

MM: Okay. Here is a short study to consider while you’re waiting to respond:


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A: All sin is a form of selfishness - self-love. But conversion, at the most fundamental level, is a change from selfishness to selflessness. So, the root of all sinful habits - selfishness - is removed upon conversion. Therefore, even though certain sinful habits might still be there, they are being eliminated because their root is gone.

MM: How does this idea fit in with the following insights: