TE: Regarding your question, I would say they are both important.

MM: Thank you.

I completely agree.

Crater: The more that I read on the subject of rebirth and true conversion the more I am wondering how many of us are truly converted in the heart not just in the mind?

MM: You are not alone. Sister White wrote:

6BC 1075
The new birth is a rare experience in this age of the world. This is the reason why there are so many perplexities in the churches. Many, so many, who assume the name of Christ are unsanctified and unholy. They have been baptized, but they were buried alive. Self did not die, and therefore they did not rise to newness of life in Christ (MS 148, 1897). {6BC 1075.7}

C: When we don't have the daily living connection with God is when we get in to trouble. We need to have what Jesus had with the Father.

MM: Amen!

DA 664
Jesus revealed no qualities, and exercised no powers, that men may not have through faith in Him. His perfect humanity is that which all His followers may possess, if they will be in subjection to God as He was. {DA 664.4}

C: I suppose each person has different habits and weakness that would be different then another but perhaps verse 26 list things that are a bit more subtil.

MM: True. But Paul lists specific sinful habits that truly born again believers, born again in heart and mind, do not practice any more. They are tempted, yes, but they do not give in. They keep the sinful clamorings of their fallen flesh under control. We shall have to battle against our internal foes until the day Jesus returns and replaces our sinful flesh with a sinless one. The clamorings of sinful flesh, however, do not constitute sinning. They are only temptations and, as you know, it is not a sin to be tempted, even when the temptation originates within us.

AH 127, 128
The lower passions have their seat in the body and work through it. The words "flesh" or "fleshly" or "carnal lusts" embrace the lower, corrupt nature; the flesh of itself cannot act contrary to the will of God. We are commanded to crucify the flesh, with the affections and lusts. How shall we do it? Shall we inflict pain on the body? No; but put to death the temptation to sin. The corrupt thought is to be expelled. Every thought is to be brought into captivity to Jesus Christ. All animal propensities are to be subjected to the higher powers of the soul. The love of God must reign supreme; Christ must occupy an undivided throne. Our bodies are to be regarded as His purchased possession. The members of the body are to become the instruments of righteousness. {AH 127.2}

1T 423
[Satan] excites the organs which lead to slavish fears and jealousies which corrupt nobleness of soul and destroy elevated thoughts and feelings. (1T 423)

RH 3-27-1888
There are thoughts and feelings suggested and aroused by Satan that annoy even the best of men; but if they are not cherished, if they are repulsed as hateful, the soul is not contaminated with guilt, and no other is defiled by their influence. (RH 3-27-1888)

A: Certainly, many sinful habits will have been eliminated. But there will be other habits that remain. People are not born again only after they become perfect.

MM: I agree. But given everything the Bible and the SOP say about moral perfection that's why I keep coming back to the difference between moral and mental sinful habits. I understand "perfection" is two fold. Born again believers 1) Begin perfect (complete), and 2) Become perfect (mature). But which type of sinful habits, moral or mental, are overlooked prior to rebirth, and why?

A: But though sinful habits may be there, they are not intact. The foundation of selfishness is torn down upon conversion.

MM: Are you referring to the "internal foes" which "strive for the mastery" quoted in my last post to Crater? What do you mean by not "intact"?

Tom, you believe people are converted and born again with certain of their sinful habits intact, that God waits to reveal them until a more appropriate time, which means they continue to practice them ignorantly because God chooses not to expose them to their sight. Please explain why God is not complicit, not an enabler.

Also, which sinful habits are so bad, or not bad enough, that God is in no hurry to reveal it, that He feels converted believers would be too overwhelmed if they knew it was sinning? Which sinful habits would born again believers, if they knew it was sinning, choose to reject Jesus rather than give it up? Which sinful habits do they cherish too much to give up if they found out too soon they are actually sinning?

MM, would you please quote something I wrote so I will know what you are referring to.

Also, you have a totally different idea of what it means to be "born again," then I do, so we're really just talking past each other. For example, in my way of seeing things, Luther was born again. William Miller too.

I believe that all sins are moral in nature. There is no such thing as mental sin. One can be mentally deficient, and thereby be led into sin, but the sin itself is a moral issue. Does that make sense?

But never forget: Moral perfection is required of all.

Tom, I agree people can experience rebirth before they complete the process of converting to observing everything Jesus commanded. Rebirth occurs when people confess and crucify, in light of the cross, their moral (as opposed to intellectual) imperfections. Luther and Miller, therefore, were born again, but they did not complete the process of converting to obeying everything Jesus commanded. Do you see the difference?

A: I believe that all sins are moral in nature.

MM: Even sins of ignorance? Doesn't morality involve conscious choice? How can a person be guilty of immorality if they have no idea what they are doing is sinful?

A: There is no such thing as mental sin.

MM: What about sins of ignorance? If a person is not mentally or intellectually aware of the fact that what they are doing is sinful are they not sinning ignorantly?

A: One can be mentally deficient, and thereby be led into sin, but the sin itself is a moral issue. Does that make sense?

MM: Are people morally accountable if they are sinning ignorantly?

A: But never forget: Moral perfection is required of all.

MM: Can people experience moral perfection if they are sinning ignorantly? For example, was Luther or Miller morally perfect in spite of the fact they were mentally ignorant of Sabbath keeping or diet reform?

Yes, even sins of ignorance. Ignorance is a mental shortcoming. Sin is a moral shortcoming. But even though they are caused by ignorance, they are still sins.

For example, when I was growing up, I was taught that having a wife AND as many girlfriends as you can manage was acceptable, even desirable. That was ignorant, because I didn't know any better (I was only 6 or so). But that was also sin because the concept itself is immoral - incongruent God's character.

To me, morality is defined by God; it is based on His unchanging character, and therefore, His unchanging law. Morality is not affected by one's knowledge or ignorance. Adultery and murder are immoral, regardless of what you think about it.