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Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2 [Re: Tom] #87759
04/10/07 02:08 AM
04/10/07 02:08 AM
Daryl  Online Canadian

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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 25,132
Nova Scotia, Canada
Then how do you explain the following EGW quote?

 Quote:

I AM means an eternal presence; the past, present, and future are alike to God. He sees the most remote events of past history and the far distant future with as clear a vision as we do those things that are transpiring daily. We know not what is before us, and if we did, it would not contribute to our eternal welfare. God gives us an opportunity to exercise faith and trust in the great I am. {14MR 21.3}

Sounds like a TV re-run to me, in the sense that God sees the future in the same detail as He sees the past and the present.


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2 [Re: Daryl] #87763
04/10/07 02:57 AM
04/10/07 02:57 AM
Tom  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Daryl, as I said, I've been explaining this for the last three pages. I gave an analogy to MM of a chessplayer and a computer programmer. I explained to Rosangela in several posts that EGW is speaking of the clarity with which God sees the future.

She writes in the quote you cite that God sees the event of past history and of the far distant future with "as clear a vision" as we do things which transpire daily. As I have stated a number of times, I believe that she is speaking of the clarity with which God sees the future. This seems very clear to me.

If this quote were saying that God sees the future like a T.V. rerun, in the sense that there is only one possible outcome for the future (like a T.V. rerun can only happen one way), that would contradict what she has written elsewhere, including the following:

a)God sent His Son at the risk of failure and eternal risk
b)The risk which God took is "more fearful" than the risk we take when bringing a child into the world.
c)The redeemed will be amazed upon realizing the risk that God took.
d)Heaven itself was imperiled.
e)Christ risked all.
d)Christ could have sinned.
e)Christ could have fallen.
f)Christ could have come in the past.
g)Waggoner was mistaken in teaching that Christ could not have failed.
h)God was not the author of sin and death.
i)God was not responsible, in any way, for the entrance of sin.

I don't see how the idea that heaven itself was imperiled fits with the view you are suggesting. Given that God was 100% certain that Christ would not fail, it follows that heaven could not have been in any danger, doesn't it?


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2 [Re: Tom] #87766
04/10/07 09:35 AM
04/10/07 09:35 AM
Rosangela  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
 Quote:
T: God knows the character of people when they die.

R: This is obvious. What He doesn't know, according to your view, is if the character of that person will change in the future or not. How many criminals do you know that were converted?

T: I don't know why you would assert that God doesn't know, according to my view, that the character of the person will not change after the resurrection.


This is not at all what I mean. What I asked is, How does God know that that person wouldn't accept Him in the future if he stayed alive instead of dying at that precise moment?

Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2 [Re: Rosangela] #87769
04/10/07 12:37 PM
04/10/07 12:37 PM
Tom  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
This seems like it's getting into another area of discussion, a very interesting one, actually, that would merit a topic. Your argument, as I'm understanding it, goes like this:

a)It would be unfair for God to allow someone to die, if that person dies unsaved, but would have been saved had (s)he simply lived longer.
b)If God does not know what a person will do in the future with 100% certainty, then it's possible a person could be lost who would have been saved had God simply allowed that person to live, which would be unfair, as per a).

That's it, isn't it?

I think a) is a very interesting proposition. That would be worth discussing. Would this include children before the age of accountability? We can assume these children won't be lost, in the sense of suffering in the judgment, but can we assume that not one child who is "as though (s)he had not been" (i.e., not brought up for the second resurrection) would have been saved had (s)he lived?

So your premise is an interesting one.

Anyway, even assuming it's true, God's knowledge of what one will do in the future is based upon His knowledge of that person's character. It needn't be based upon His foreknowledge. In fact, I'm not aware of a single statement from the Spirit of Prophecy where she makes any argument whatsoever that God makes these sorts of judgments based on His foreknowledge (i.e., that God looks to the future, and bases His judgment on what He sees that a person would or would not have done). Instead, what I see, is that God makes judgments based on His knowledge of a person's character, and this judgment will be born out by what happens in the future.

Does this address your point?


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2 [Re: Tom] #87777
04/10/07 02:52 PM
04/10/07 02:52 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
 Originally Posted By: Tom Ewall
MM, I'm sorry, but I can't respond to your post. It's too fragmented. I'd have to go back, and get the context of what I originally wrote, and piece it back together, and that would just take too long. If you want to include what you originally posted, my comment to that, and then your question or comment, that would give me enough context to respond.

What I see happening is you make some statement, and I provide a response to your statement, and then you quote my response without your original statement, and make some comment or assertion about it completely devoid of the context of what I was originally responding to.

Okay. Here it is again cleaned up:

TE: MM, why do you think God's ability to predict the future is limited to there being only one possible outcome?

MM: Because we’re not talking about God “predicting” the future. We’re talking about God jumping ahead in time and looking back on what has already happened. He simply reports to us what happened. As such, we’re talking about the past.

Do you believe God can jump ahead in time and look back on what has already happened?

TE: I'll give two examples to show that your logic doesn't follow. First of all, consider a chess game. The world champion has achieved a winning position. He can calculate that no matter what route his opponent takes, he will be checkmated. Now he doesn't know exactly what moves the opponent will make, but he is 100% certain that he, the world champion, will win.

MM: There is no way your world champion chess player can be 100% certain he will. Besides, what does it have to with God jumping ahead in time and looking back on what has already happened?

TE: Here's another example. Let's say I create a computer program to do some specific thing. Now there are all sorts of possibilities as to inputs, etc., but I know what the end of my program will be. I know every possible outcome because I built the program. My program can do that which it was designed to do, even without the specific inputs being known.

MM: Again, what does it have to with God jumping ahead in time and looking back on what has already happened?

TE: God's ability to know the future is not limited to there only being one possibility of how things might happen.

MM: Not so. He knows exactly how things will play out because He has already watched it happened. It is true, however, that when relating to us He might give us options and explain the various outcomes, but such communication does not imply God does not know exactly how things will play out.

Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2 [Re: Mountain Man] #87778
04/10/07 03:01 PM
04/10/07 03:01 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
TE: Anyway, even assuming it's true, God's knowledge of what one will do in the future is based upon His knowledge of that person's character. It needn't be based upon His foreknowledge. In fact, I'm not aware of a single statement from the Spirit of Prophecy where she makes any argument whatsoever that God makes these sorts of judgments based on His foreknowledge (i.e., that God looks to the future, and bases His judgment on what He sees that a person would or would not have done). Instead, what I see, is that God makes judgments based on His knowledge of a person's character, and this judgment will be born out by what happens in the future.

MM: What about the case of William Miller? God laid him to rest to prevent him from rejecting the Sabbath and losing his salvation and causing others to lose their salvation.

 Quote:
After the great disappointment in 1844, Satan and his angels were busily engaged in laying snares to unsettle the faith of the body. He affected the minds of persons who had had an experience in the messages, and who had an appearance of humility. Some pointed to the future for the fulfillment of the first and second messages, while others pointed far back into the past, declaring that they had been there fulfilled. These were gaining an influence over the minds of the inexperienced and unsettling their faith. Some were searching the Bible to build up a faith of their own, independent of the body. Satan exulted in all this; for he knew that those who broke loose from the anchor he could affect by different errors and drive about with divers winds of doctrine. Many who had led in the first and second messages now denied them, and there was division and confusion throughout the body. {EW 256.3}

My attention was then called to William Miller. He looked perplexed and was bowed with anxiety and distress for his people. The company who had been united and loving in 1844 were losing their love, opposing one another, and falling into a cold, backslidden state. As he beheld this, grief wasted his strength. I saw leading men watching him, and fearing lest he should receive the third angel's message and the commandments of God. And as he would lean toward the light from heaven, these men would lay some plan to draw his mind away. A human influence was exerted to keep him in darkness and to retain his influence among those who opposed the truth. At length William Miller raised his voice against the light from heaven. He failed in not receiving the message which would have fully explained his disappointment and cast a light and glory on the past, which would have revived his exhausted energies, brightened his hope, and led him to glorify God. He leaned to human wisdom instead of divine, but being broken with arduous labor in his Master's cause and by age, he was not as accountable as those who kept him from the truth. They are responsible; the sin rests upon them. {EW 257.1}

If William Miller could have seen the light of the third message, many things which looked dark and mysterious to him would have been explained. But his brethren professed so deep love and interest for him, that he thought he could not tear away from them. His heart would incline toward the truth, and then he looked at his brethren; they opposed it. Could he tear away from those who had stood side by side with him in proclaiming the coming of Jesus? He thought they surely would not lead him astray. {EW 258.1}

God suffered him to fall under the power of Satan, the dominion of death, and hid him in the grave from those who were constantly drawing him from the truth. Moses erred as he was about to enter the Promised Land. So also, I saw that William Miller erred as he was soon to enter the heavenly Canaan, in suffering his influence to go against the truth. Others led him to this; others must account for it. But angels watch the precious dust of this servant of God, and he will come forth at the sound of the last trump. {EW 258.2}

Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2 [Re: Tom] #87780
04/10/07 03:18 PM
04/10/07 03:18 PM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,636
California, USA
 Originally Posted By: Tom Ewall
Anyway, even assuming it's true, God's knowledge of what one will do in the future is based upon His knowledge of that person's character. It needn't be based upon His foreknowledge. In fact, I'm not aware of a single statement from the Spirit of Prophecy where she makes any argument whatsoever that God makes these sorts of judgments based on His foreknowledge (i.e., that God looks to the future, and bases His judgment on what He sees that a person would or would not have done). Instead, what I see, is that God makes judgments based on His knowledge of a person's character, and this judgment will be born out by what happens in the future.


That's exactly how I think foreknowledge works. God doesn't pull out some kind of celestial videotape to find out what's going on. Instead, He fully knows the initial conditions found today, and based on cause and effect relationships, He extrapolates the future.

But extrapolation is only accurate if cause and effect relationships are deterministic - identical inputs always result in identical outputs. If there was any doubt in the system introduced by probabilistic effects, etc., extrapolation would be inaccurate.


By God's grace,
Arnold

1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2 [Re: asygo] #87788
04/10/07 05:40 PM
04/10/07 05:40 PM
Tom  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
It looks like we agree on this point.

Where we may disagree is that I understand that when God looks to the future, He sees all the possible inputs that occur, not just one.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2 [Re: Tom] #87790
04/10/07 06:55 PM
04/10/07 06:55 PM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,636
California, USA
 Originally Posted By: Tom Ewall
Where we may disagree is that I understand that when God looks to the future, He sees all the possible inputs that occur, not just one.


We might be in agreement here as well.

At the instant we call "Now," there is only one set of inputs. That is, there is not a plethora of POSSIBLE inputs, but only one set of ACTUAL inputs. Do you agree?

Because God has made things to run by definite cause and effect relationships (whether or not we know or understand those relationships is irrelevant), this one set of actual inputs/causes will result in one DEFINITE set of outputs/effects, rather than a group of POSSIBLE outputs/effects. Do you agree?

That set of ACTUAL outputs will then serve as the set of ACTUAL inputs for the next cause/effect relationship.
Do you agree?

Therefore, given that there is only one set of DEFINITE, ACTUAL inputs right now, there is a DEFINITE, ACTUAL future that can be accurately predicted by extrapolating the countless cause/effect relationships involved. There may have been many possible inputs, and God may have known about all of them, but based on what's going on now, He knows what will result tomorrow. Do you agree?


By God's grace,
Arnold

1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2 [Re: asygo] #87792
04/10/07 08:19 PM
04/10/07 08:19 PM
Tom  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
If I'm understanding you correctly, I don't think I agree. The part I don't agree with is that the inputs of the future are determined by the inputs of the present. In particular, when it comes to free will, there are multiple possible inputs, so the inputs are not determined.

However, I may have misunderstood you.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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