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Re: What is the Truth About The Foreknowledge of God? [Re: Tom] #87724
04/09/07 02:52 PM
04/09/07 02:52 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Of course it was possible. I'm not an angel who cannot die. There was a threat to my life. The threat was very, very real, and it cannot be denied. After facing everything I was willing to face to save my son, what mattered least was whether I would die or not.

Re: What is the Truth About The Foreknowledge of God? [Re: Rosangela] #87730
04/09/07 04:15 PM
04/09/07 04:15 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Let's say that God foresaw that you would not die. Was it possible for you to die?


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: What is the Truth About The Foreknowledge of God? [Re: Tom] #87732
04/09/07 05:45 PM
04/09/07 05:45 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
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Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Tom, what God knows about the outcome of a particular situation has no bearing on how we feel about it during the event. The threat of failure or death is real. There is nothing imaginary about it. Even if God reveals to us that we will succeed or survive it in no way lessens the risk or threat or danger we experience during the event.

For example, in the following account of the 144,000 (quote below) they know they are going to succeed and be translated alive when Jesus returns. Do you think it lessens the risk or threat or danger they experience? Hopefully you don't, but if you do, then consider this: Both God and Jesus knew He would succeed on the cross. Did it lessen the risk or threat or danger He experienced?

Or, do you assume the 144,000 is a different situation, that God didn't know Jesus would succeed but that He knows the 144,000 will? If so, then how do you explain all the places in the OT and NT where God described Jesus succeeding on the cross? How is that any different than all the places in the OT and NT where God describes the 144,000 succeeding?

 Quote:
As Satan influenced Esau to march against Jacob, so he will stir up the wicked to destroy God's people in the time of trouble. And as he accused Jacob, he will urge his accusations against the people of God. He numbers the world as his subjects; but the little company who keep the commandments of God are resisting his supremacy. If he could blot them from the earth, his triumph would be complete. He sees that holy angels are guarding them, and he infers that their sins have been pardoned; but he does not know that their cases have been decided in the sanctuary above. He has an accurate knowledge of the sins which he has tempted them to commit, and he presents these before God in the most exaggerated light, representing this people to be just as deserving as himself of exclusion from the favor of God. He declares that the Lord cannot in justice forgive their sins and yet destroy him and his angels. He claims them as his prey and demands that they be given into his hands to destroy. {GC 618.2}

As Satan accuses the people of God on account of their sins, the Lord permits him to try them to the uttermost. Their confidence in God, their faith and firmness, will be severely tested. As they review the past, their hopes sink; for in their whole lives they can see little good. They are fully conscious of their weakness and unworthiness. Satan endeavors to terrify them with the thought that their cases are hopeless, that the stain of their defilement will never be washed away. He hopes so to destroy their faith that they will yield to his temptations and turn from their allegiance to God. {GC 618.3}

Though God's people will be surrounded by enemies who are bent upon their destruction, yet the anguish which they suffer is not a dread of persecution for the truth's sake; they fear that every sin has not been repented of, and that through some fault in themselves they will fail to realize the fulfillment of the Saviour's promise: I "will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world." Revelation 3:10. If they could have the assurance of pardon they would not shrink from torture or death; but should they prove unworthy, and lose their lives because of their own defects of character, then God's holy name would be reproached. {GC 619.1}

On every hand they hear the plottings of treason and see the active working of rebellion; and there is aroused within them an intense desire, an earnest yearning of soul, that this great apostasy may be terminated and the wickedness of the wicked may come to an end. But while they plead with God to stay the work of rebellion, it is with a keen sense of self-reproach that they themselves have no more power to resist and urge back the mighty tide of evil. They feel that had they always employed all their ability in the service of Christ, going forward from strength to strength, Satan's forces would have less power to prevail against them. {GC 619.2}

They afflict their souls before God, pointing to their past repentance of their many sins, and pleading the Saviour's promise: "Let him take hold of My strength, that he may make peace with Me; and he shall make peace with Me." Isaiah 27:5. Their faith does not fail because their prayers are not immediately answered. Though suffering the keenest anxiety, terror, and distress, they do not cease their intercessions. They lay hold of the strength of God as Jacob laid hold of the Angel; and the language of their souls is: "I will not let Thee go, except Thou bless me." {GC 619.3}

Had not Jacob previously repented of his sin in obtaining the birthright by fraud, God would not have heard his prayer and mercifully preserved his life. So, in the time of trouble, if the people of God had unconfessed sins to appear before them while tortured with fear and anguish, they would be overwhelmed; despair would cut off their faith, and they could not have confidence to plead with God for deliverance. But while they have a deep sense of their unworthiness, they have no concealed wrongs to reveal. Their sins have gone beforehand to judgment and have been blotted out, and they cannot bring them to remembrance. {GC 620.1}

Re: What is the Truth About The Foreknowledge of God? [Re: Mountain Man] #87733
04/09/07 05:49 PM
04/09/07 05:49 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
PS - Tom, did you overlook my post to you at the top of the previous page (page 20)?

Re: What is the Truth About The Foreknowledge of God? [Re: Tom] #87734
04/09/07 06:20 PM
04/09/07 06:20 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Yes, I had overlooked it.

Let’s look at it from a different angle. God knows the end from beginning. For example, He knows the USA is going to influence the rest of the world to enforce resting on Sunday and working on Saturday. He knows there will be many martyrs. But after probation closes He knows none of the 144,000 is going to die. Does God's foreknowledge of their success mean there is no risk, no peril, no danger?

Yes, of course. If God knows none of the 144,000 is going to die, then there is no chance that any of them will die, and hence no risk, peril, or danger. How could there be? Risk/peril/danger means "the possibility of loss" or "the possibility of harm." Without the possibility of loss or harm, there is no risk, peril or danger.

TE: “He doesn’t tells us, 'Now, this or that could happen.’” I refuted this by showing you examples which disproved your assertion. I have requested that rather than move on to some other point, that you recognize your assertion was false. Rather than do this, you chose to move on to some other point. So I will once again request that you recognize your assertion was false. *Then* you can move on to some other point.

That’s not what I meant. What I meant was – God does not tells us, “This or that could happen, but I cannot say ahead of time exactly how it will play out because, frankly, I do not know." Do you see the difference?

The difference between what you meant and what you said? Yes, I see the difference. Not being able to divine what you really mean when you say things, my point is that that what you actually said was false. Do you agree with this?


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: What is the Truth About The Foreknowledge of God? [Re: Tom] #87735
04/09/07 06:28 PM
04/09/07 06:28 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Tom, what God knows about the outcome of a particular situation has no bearing on how we feel about it during the event.

It could, if He shared with us what He knows.

The threat of failure or death is real.

We may feel a threat of failure or death where none exists. If God sees there is no threat, that whas we feel does not correspond to reality. Reality corresponds to what God knows, not what we feel.

There is nothing imaginary about it.

There's nothing imaginary about what we imagine to be the case; that is, we really perceive there to danger or risk. However, if God knows there is no possible chance of failure or harm, then there is none, and what we perceive is simply wrong. What God knows is right.

Even if God reveals to us that we will succeed or survive it in no way lessens the risk or threat or danger we experience during the event.

That's correct. If God revealed to us we would survive, our probability of survival would be 100%, just as it would be if God didn't reveal what He knows to us. It would impact our perception of reality, however.

For example, in the following account of the 144,000 (quote below) they know they are going to succeed and be translated alive when Jesus returns. Do you think it lessens the risk or threat or danger they experience?

No, there risk and danger is the same, regardless of what they know. God will deliver them, 100%. They are under no danger.

Hopefully you don't, but if you do, then consider this: Both God and Jesus knew He would succeed on the cross. Did it lessen the risk or threat or danger He experienced?

The precept of this question is contrary to what God has revealed to us. God has revealed to us that "heaven itself was at risk." God has revealed to us that "Christ could have sinned. He could have fallen." God has revealed to us that God sent His Son at "a more fearful risk" (compared to our children). So I must reject the premise of your question, based on what God has revealed to us.

Or, do you assume the 144,000 is a different situation, that God didn't know Jesus would succeed but that He knows the 144,000 will? If so, then how do you explain all the places in the OT and NT where God described Jesus succeeding on the cross? How is that any different than all the places in the OT and NT where God describes the 144,000 succeeding?

The 144,000 are, by definition, those who succeed. Those who don't succeed are not a part of the 144,000.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: What is the Truth About The Foreknowledge of God? [Re: Tom] #87736
04/09/07 06:30 PM
04/09/07 06:30 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
 Quote:
Let's say that God foresaw that you would not die. Was it possible for you to die?

It was possible for me to die, but God saw that I wouldn't die.

Let's say that God had foreseen that I would die. Do you consider that there was a risk or not?

Re: What is the Truth About The Foreknowledge of God? [Re: Rosangela] #87742
04/09/07 08:39 PM
04/09/07 08:39 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Risk is defined as the possibility of loss. If God saw that you would die, then you would be incurring risk, since it would be possible (100% chance in fact) that you would die.

In the case were God saw that you wouldn't die, your probability of dying would be 0, and there would be no risk. The first part of your sentence, "it was possible for me to die" is false, since nothing that God sees (under your paradigm) will happen, can fail to happen.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: What is the Truth About The Foreknowledge of God? [Re: Tom] #87767
04/10/07 01:36 PM
04/10/07 01:36 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
TE: If God saw that you would die, then you would be incurring risk, since it would be possible (100% chance in fact) that you would die.

MM: If "risk" means probability of dying, and if it means nothing else, then the certainty of death is not a "risk" - it is an inescapable fact. No risk is taken. But if risk has more than one meaning then it is possible to apply the concept in cases involving inescapable facts.

BTW, where does Sister White say the "risk" Jesus took included dying?

Re: What is the Truth About The Foreknowledge of God? [Re: Mountain Man] #87771
04/10/07 02:19 PM
04/10/07 02:19 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Risk means the possibility of loss, which means the probability is anything greater than 0. You're statement that no risk is taken is completely wrong. There can be no greater risk than something which has a 100% chance of occurring.

No one is talking about there being a risk of Jesus' dying, so I don't know why you're bringing this up.

By the way, when speaking of an event which is certain to occur, such as death, risk is usually used in the context of time. That is, one would speak of the risk of death occurring, for example, before one turns 70, or within one year, something like that. In the context of Rosangela's question, she was speaking of death occurring in the context of a specific dangerous event.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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