PS - Your last post (88451 in response to Rosangela) seems to assume God does not know who will be saved or lost if they die before their final decision is obvious to the onlooking universe. If so, how will God decide during judgment who is lost or saved, especially as it relates to children who die before they reach the age of accountability, before their final decision is obvious? And, if you happen to have an answer, why couldn't God apply it to determine when and how He should allow them to die? If you don't have an answer, does it mean everyone who dies before their final decision is obvious is lost?

Regarding the PS, I was pointing out a contradiction you had. On the one had, you say that all will have made a final decision which is obvious to onlookers. On the other, you point out that God makes a judgment based on something which inside His head. That would hardly be obvious to onlookers.

MM: I agree with Rosangela. That is, I believe God knows who will choose to be saved and who will not choose to be saved. He will not allow anyone to die before their choice is obvious to the onlooking universe. This applies to certain slaves and children. How can it? Because God is omniscient. He has known about everyones final decision since before the beginning of creation. But He allows people to live long enough so that their final decision is obvious to the onlooking universe.

TE: The slaves referred to and children before the age of accountability haven't made a final decision, because they never had the opportunity. That's why (excluding the saved children)
they aren't resurrected.

MM: Maybe from your perspective, but you don't know people like God does. He knows the end from the beginning. He knows who will choose to be saved and who will not choose to be saved before they are even conceived. He also knows precisely when they will make their final decision, thus He can allow someone to die before they make it. Because God knows what decision they are going to make, He can allow them to die before they make it without jeopardizing their eternal destiny. It is imputed.

TE: What does this mean? Are you saying something like God looks at one of the Jewish children who died in the holocaust, sees what they would have done had the lived, and if they would have accepted Christ at some point in the future, He takes them to heaven?

MM: That God knows who will choose to be saved and who will not choose to be saved before they are even conceived, and that He knows the best moment for every person to die.

TE: God may know the best moment for every person to die, but that doesn't mean He chooses it for them. For example, the best moment for a Jewish child of the holocaust to die could be seen by God to be after living a long, propersous life, somewhere along the way having accepted Christ. But Adolf Hitler had this child killed, and the moment that God foresaw would be the best moment for the child's death didn't happen.

Evil men counteract God's will. We pray, "Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven" precisely because God's will is not done on earth as it is in heaven.

MM: The reason your argument does not include God's foreknowledge is because you do not believe He knows ahead of time who will choose to be saved and who will not choose to be saved. Your argument does not indicate that God knows the future like a rerun. I assume it doesn't because you do not believe it.

TE: No, MM, this has nothing to do with it. As I stated, I can easily find people who would agree with the argument who do not share my view of the future. You're trying to introduce something into the argument which doesn't belong there. The argument stands as stated regardless of whether one holds to an open view of the future, or the traditional Armenian model.

a. Did God choose the moment for the Jews of the holocaust to die, or Hitler? (or both; perhaps you are asserting that Hitler was simply following God's will.)

MM: A. As you know, many Jews were miraculously saved from death during the Holocaust. Others were not. Why? I believe it is because God was in control - not Hitler. God decides if people are going to live or die; He chooses the best moment for every person to die.

TE: The question of whether God chooses the best moment for every person to die is what we're discussing. You can't simply assert it. That has no value. You need to develop some sort of an argument to support the assertion.

To follow logically from what you're written, if God is in control, and not Hitler, then every person that Hitler killed is because that was God's choice. Do you agree with this?

b. If it's a good thing for Jewish children to die in the holocaust, why wouldn't it be a good thing at other times as well? (I write "good thing" because I'm assuming that everything God chooses is a good thing)

MM: B. It is always the right time when God allows someone to die. He doesn't need a holocaust. True, God allowed Hitler to murder Jews, but He would have preferred it if circumstances did not lead to such atrocities. God hates sinning and death. He wants everyone to live for Jesus. But sinning and the great controversy make death a necessary evil.

It was God who denied mankind access to the Tree of Life. Thus, death is not only inevitable, it is also a blessing in disguise. Nevertheless, God chooses the best moment for every person to die. He does not leave it to random chance, or to any other thing. God is in control of when someone dies - not death, not disease, not accidents, not sin, not Satan, not evil people.

Quote:
PS - Your last post (88451 in response to Rosangela) seems to assume God does not know who will be saved or lost if they die before their final decision is obvious to the onlooking universe. If so, how will God decide during judgment who is lost or saved, especially as it relates to children who die before they reach the age of accountability, before their final decision is obvious? And, if you happen to have an answer, why couldn't God apply it to determine when and how He should allow them to die? If you don't have an answer, does it mean everyone who dies before their final decision is obvious is lost?

Regarding the PS, I was pointing out a contradiction you had. On the one had, you say that all will have made a final decision which is obvious to onlookers. On the other, you point out that God makes a judgment based on something which inside His head. That would hardly be obvious to onlookers.

1. Your last post (88451 in response to Rosangela) seems to assume God does not know who will be saved or lost if they die before their final decision is obvious to the onlooking universe.

MM: Is this what you believe?

It’s irrelevant to this discussion. As I’ve pointed out, at least 5 times now, I could have someone who does not share my view of the future come in my place and make these same arguments.

2. If so, how will God decide during judgment who is lost or saved, especially as it relates to children who die before they reach the age of accountability, before their final decision is obvious?

The future does not need to be viewable as a T.V. rerun in order for God to know what will happen in the future.

3. And, if you happen to have an answer, why couldn't God apply it to determine when and how He should allow them to die?

We’re in the middle of a Great Controversy. Bad and unjust things happen. This is not God’s will, but a result of the conflict.

4. If you don't have an answer, does it mean everyone who dies before their final decision is obvious is lost?

No.

TE: On the one had, you say that all will have made a final decision which is obvious to onlookers. On the other, you point out that God makes a judgment based on something which inside His head. That would hardly be obvious to onlookers.

MM: Only in God’s head? We know God will admit no one to heaven that is likely to rebel again. In the case of children that God admits to heaven that died before they reached the age of accountability, it would have to be obvious to the rest of us in heaven, during the first few days, that they will not rebel, right? So, what is it about such children that leads us to believe they will not rebel? And, what is it about the children that are not in heaven that leads us to believe they would have rebelled?

The contradiction I pointed out is that you earlier said that everyone would make a final decision that would be obvious to the unfallen worlds and angels. Then you said the basis of judgment for children before the age of accountability (we need an acronym for that; CBTAOA) is God’s looking into the future to see what they would have done had they lived (which is an illogical suggestion; that is, it has logical problems of the form of a paradox, similar to time travel paradoxes) which is something in God’s head, and therefore not obvious.

a) Millions of Jews before the age of accountability were killed.

b) Presumably most of these were brought up by unbelieving parents.

c) Some pct. of these will not be saved.

d) This leaves a huge number of children who will not be saved (i.e. take part in the first resurrection) unless you wish to make the claim that *all* children of unbelieving parents will be saved.

e) The only way that none of the huge number of children would be better off had they not been killed is if none of them would have been saved had they lived.


Yes! However, like the Gentiles in Romans 2:13-15, accepting Jesus as their personal Saviour is not necessarily a prerequisite to be saved in heaven.

Again, since God knows ahead of time who will chose to be saved and who will not chose to be saved (or whose character indicates they would have chosen Jesus if they had known about Him, or who would have embraced the 3AMs if they had known about them), since God knows all things, He chooses the best time to allow each person to die, and how they die.

There is no other way. Why? Because God is in control. God is omniscient. He will not take anyone to heaven who will rebel again. Thus, in order for Him to take children to heaven, people who died before they had a chance to choose salvation, it is imperative that He knows they will not rebel again. How can He know if they died before their final decision was obvious? What do you think? Are they automatically lost? If not, why not?


The idea that Hitler counteracted God’s will sounds heretical to me. God successfully prevented Balaam from cursing the Jews. God successfully influenced Cyrus to fund the Jews’ return to Jerusalem. God successfully prevented the Jews from killing Jesus prematurely. God successfully saved millions of Jews from dying during the Holocaust. Do you really believe God was unable to control Hitler?


“e) The only way that none of the huge number of children would be better off had they not been killed is if none of them would have been saved had they lived.” Why do you believe it is “the only way”? Are you assuming they died saved? How do you know if they were lost or saved when they died?

Also, why do you say, “if none of them would have been saved had they lived”? In the previous point you wrote, “This leaves a huge number of children who will not be saved”. Your assumption that they “will not be saved” does not allow for the “if” in your following point.


God allowed Hitler to kill Jews. But God did not allow him to kill all the Jews. God protected certain Jews. But He allowed the rest to die. Why did God save some and not the others? We will not know or understand why until God explains it to us in heaven. So, yes, people die when and how they do because God either causes it or allows it. Do you agree?


Do you agree?

Now it looks like you are suggesting a new hypothesis? That is, that God allows people to live, even though they can be lost, in order to demonstrate the sinfulness of sin? The same thing would be true about allowing people to die, right? God allowed the victims of the holocaust to die, in order to demonstrate the sinfulness of sin?