One can become saved, then become lost again, then become saved again. I believe in neither "once saved always saved" nor in "once lost always lost." So conceptually, I think you're seeing what I'm saying.

But, and this is a GIGANTIC but, repentance is not like a light switch that you can just flip on and off. Repentance involves a radical change, a "transformation of nature." Similarly, the change of allegiance from God to self is not a trivial matter.

So, though it is possible for one to be saved, then lost again, then saved again, it is virtually impossible to do it within a day, and certainly within an hour. And if one claims to accomplish such a feat, I would venture to say that his "repentance" is of the sort that merely accomplishes a soothing of the feelings, rather than the redemption of the soul.

I agree more with this last post than the previous ones, in terms of how what you're saying sounds to me. I can say for sure I agree with this last one. The other one was giving the idea that by committing a sin you could lose your salvation. I agree that it's not like a light switch. That's a very good way of putting it.

EGW speaks of how God looks at the trend of the life, that character is not set by the occasional good dead or misdeed.

I think if we focus of behavior we are in danger of missing the big picture. Behavior is evidence of the heart. When the heart is right, our behavior will follow. Matters of the heart are not like the flipping on and off of a light switch. That's a good analogy.

Our fundamental problem is not knowing God. This is why Sister White writes that the whole purpose of Christ's earthly mission was the revelation of God, that we might be set right with God.

I also like very much the following from the Desire of Ages:

Many people think of it that way, but it's backwards. By losing your salvation you commit sin. Sin is the effect, not the cause. If we stayed in a saved condition, committing known sin will never happen.



That's why I say that one born of God cannot knowingly sin. His heart, molded by God's grace, cannot allow him to knowingly crucify his Lord.



Many have their plan all laid out: I'll just repent. It is not so easy. It might be easier to attach your light bulb to a nuclear reactor than to repent.



Stephen Wallace calls it knowing God "to the point of conception." When Adam knew Eve, they bore children. So also, when we know God, we bear fruit.

When Jesus said, "I never knew you," He was not declaring lack of information, but lack of the intimacy that produces fruit.

Sounds good, Arnold.

It's difficult to put things in a clear way. I'm finding that avoiding theological language helps.


Tom

MM, have I cleared things up sufficiently?

A: People can and do stop being born again. Every time they knowingly choose to sin, they are forfeiting their rebirth.

MM: Must they be rebaptized every time they commit a known sin?

…………………………..

MM: So long as born again believers are abiding in Jesus, so long as they are walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man, so long as they are actively and aggressively partaking of the divine nature they do not and cannot commit a known sin.

A: I agree with that 100%.

……………………………

A: “When one is separated from Jesus, there is no rebirth, no salvation, no life.”

MM: I’m not sure I agree they cease being born again. Yes, they cease bearing the fruits of being born again, of abiding in Jesus, but I’m not so sure a moment of weakness reverses or cancels rebirth.

……………………………

A: One can become saved, then become lost again, then become saved again.

MM: I agree.

……………………………

A: So, though it is possible for one to be saved, then lost again, then saved again, it is virtually impossible to do it within a day, and certainly within an hour.

MM: Would truly born again believers wait more than an hour or a day to repent of a known sin? I suspect truly born again believers would repent immediately, not wait an hour or day. Do you know what I mean?

……………………………

A: By losing your salvation you commit sin. Sin is the effect, not the cause.

MM: Isn’t this backwards? Isn’t the main reason why we sin is because we take our eyes off Jesus, we stop consciously choosing to abide in Him? And aren’t we lost the instant we commit a known sin?

TE: It sounds to me, Arnold, that you are basically saying the same thing as MM. Basically both of you believe that a person can go in and out of being in a saved position multiple times a day or hour. You commit a sin (known sin) and are lost. Repent, and you are saved again. Sin again, and lost again. Repent again, and saved again. And so forth. Am I misunderstanding either one of you on this point?

MM: Tom, I doubt truly born again believers commit known sins so easily, so frequently. But, yes, theoretically believers can, in the throes of temptation, take their eyes off Jesus (i.e., cease abiding in Jesus) and commit a known sin. While thus separated from Jesus, while in known sin, they are in a lost state. On this point, I agree with Arnold. “When one is separated from Jesus, there is no rebirth, no salvation, no life.” Do you agree?

Yes, but not by water. Such must be baptized again into the likeness of Christ's death, that they may rise to walk in newness of life. The flesh that has been resurrected must be crucified again.



1Jn 3:6 - Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

Here's the first part of that in logician's terms: If you abide in Christ, you do not sin.

If you accept that (and I see no reason why you wouldn't), you must also accept its logically equivalent counterpart (called the Contrapositive): If you sin, you do not abide in Christ.

The way I understand the Bible's teaching, if one is not abiding in Christ, if one is "outside" Christ, there is no rebirth to speak of. Outside of Christ, one can only find eternal death.

But it is not the moment of weakness that cancels rebirth. It is the refusal to submit to God that cancels rebirth. And if that happens, that moment in time which could have been a testament of triumph over temptation, becomes a tale of tragedy. In short, the cancellation of rebirth causes the moment of weakness, not the other way around.



I think what you're talking about is ignorant sin. When a truly converted person finds out that something he has been doing is a sin, he immediately repents and forsakes it. There is no waiting because there is nothing to wait for. His repentance is instant, deep, and life-changing.

But a truly born again believer is led by the Holy Spirit. Therefore, he walks in the Spirit, not the flesh. Therefore, he does not need to repent of known sin because the Spirit never leads him into sin. Whoever is born of God does not commit sin.



The reason we commit sin is because we take our eyes off Jesus. You and I agree.

I could have been more precise in my language. What I was calling "salvation" is not generally called that. Let's back up.

By grace are ye saved through faith. To be saved, we need grace and we receive it through faith.

The grace that brings salvation teaches us to live godly lives. That same grace enables us to deny fleshly lusts and be godly.

This grace is available to us only while we abide in Christ. Apart from Christ, there is no grace. When we stop abiding, we lose the grace, and consequently, both salvation from eternal death and salvation from the power of sin. At this point, we do have neither the power nor the disposition to resist temptation, which then leads to the commission of sin.

So, when does one become lost? Once our eyes are off Jesus, we are lost. Whatever sins we might commit after that is just evil icing on the cake.

I’m not following you. Jesus said people who are not born again must be born again of water and of the Spirit. If committing a known sin reverses or undoes rebirth, that is, if it means they are no longer born again, why wouldn’t Jesus’ instruction apply again, as if they were not born again?

Also, your explanation of rebaptism seems to be the same as repentance. But aren’t they different? I thought repentance leads to, or prepares one for, baptism by water and by the Spirit. Am I missing something?


Again, what you’re saying doesn’t make sense to me. Yes, I agree that born again believers do not and cannot commit a known sin while they are actively and aggressively choosing to consciously abide in Jesus. However, I have not found in the Bible or the SOP where they cease being born again if they take their eyes off Jesus and commit a known sin.

The Scripture you quoted does not say they cease being born again. I hear John saying, People who commit known sins do so because they are not seeing Jesus, they are not knowing Him. “Whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.” In other words, when we take our eyes off Jesus, when we are not in an intimate relationship with Him – we are back in the mind of the old man, committing known sins.

Do you see what I mean?


I agree with what you wrote about sins of ignorance and immediately repenting and experiencing a life change. God is good. However, in the case of born again believers taking their eyes off Jesus and committing a known sin, I am still unclear about what you posted. Perhaps it has do with your idea about them becoming unborn again?

When believers become unborn again and commit a known sin, how long do they typically wait to repent and experience rebirth again? Is it virtually impossible for them to do it within an hour or a day? If so, why? I know when I take my eyes off Jesus and a commit a known sin, I do not hesitate to repent. Am I doing something wrong?


Yes, it is the grace of God that empowers us to recognize and resist sin, self, and Satan; it also empowers us to mature in the fruits of the Spirit, to nurture and develop the sinless traits of character inherent within the sinless seed or mind of the new man which God implants in us the moment we experience the miracle of rebirth. “Let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear.” (Heb 12:28)

“Whatever sins we might commit after [taking our eyes off Jesus] is just evil icing on the cake.” Isn’t it also a sin to simply not abide in Jesus?

TE: It sounds to me, Arnold, that you are basically saying the same thing as MM. Basically both of you believe that a person can go in and out of being in a saved position multiple times a day or hour. You commit a sin (known sin) and are lost. Repent, and you are saved again. Sin again, and lost again. Repent again, and saved again. And so forth. Am I misunderstanding either one of you on this point?

MM: Tom, I doubt truly born again believers commit known sins so easily, so frequently. But, yes, theoretically believers can, in the throes of temptation, take their eyes off Jesus (i.e., cease abiding in Jesus) and commit a known sin. While thus separated from Jesus, while in known sin, they are in a lost state. On this point, I agree with Arnold. “When one is separated from Jesus, there is no rebirth, no salvation, no life.” Do you agree?

Aarg! I wrote a response to this, but it didn’t get posted somehow.

EGW wrote that it is not the occasional good dead or occasional misdeed that’s important, but the trend of the life (my words; her idea). Moses is a good example of this. He lost his temper, but was not in a lost condition. His repentance was immediate and deep. If he had died at the moment of anger, he would not have been lost. His character hadn’t changed. He would still be happy in heaven.

However, one cherished sin is enough to make of no effect all the power of the Gospel.