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Re: True Conversion Described
[Re: Tom]
#88503
05/01/07 04:58 PM
05/01/07 04:58 PM
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A problem I’m seeing in this conversation is a lack of cons as to what John’s letter was about. He was not trying to finely parse out sinning/not sinning; abiding/not abiding/; born again/not born again. Read the epistle through, and it’s obvious that John is talking about two different classes of people; those who love, and those who don’t.
Those who are of God, love. They love God, and they love their neighbor, and in so doing the keep the commandments. Their love is demonstrated by their actions. This is John’s simple argument.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: True Conversion Described
[Re: Tom]
#88516
05/02/07 01:08 AM
05/02/07 01:08 AM
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John is talking about two different classes of people; those who love, and those who don’t. That's true. But that's related to all the sinning/abiding stuff. There are only two classes of people. The problem is that those in the bad glass often think themselves to be members of the good class. It takes honest reflection and assessment to realize when one has not crossed from death to life.
By God's grace,
Arnold
1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
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Re: True Conversion Described
[Re: Mountain Man]
#88518
05/02/07 01:27 AM
05/02/07 01:27 AM
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Just a quickie. Again, what you’re saying doesn’t make sense to me. Yes, I agree that born again believers do not and cannot commit a known sin while they are actively and aggressively choosing to consciously abide in Jesus. However, I have not found in the Bible or the SOP where they cease being born again if they take their eyes off Jesus and commit a known sin.
The Scripture you quoted does not say they cease being born again. I hear John saying, People who commit known sins do so because they are not seeing Jesus, they are not knowing Him. “Whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.” In other words, when we take our eyes off Jesus, when we are not in an intimate relationship with Him – we are back in the mind of the old man, committing known sins.
Do you see what I mean? I see what you're saying re: abiding and known sin, and I agree. Let's do the same thing with another verse to see how it also applies to rebirth. 1 John 3:9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God. Statement: If you are born of God, you do not sin.Contrapositive: If you do sin, you are not born of God.You see, known sin and rebirth are mutually exclusive. Put that together with what we did with 1Jn 3:6 and you'll also see that rebirth and abiding in Christ always go hand-in-hand.
By God's grace,
Arnold
1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
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Re: True Conversion Described
[Re: Tom]
#88538
05/02/07 01:53 PM
05/02/07 01:53 PM
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TE: It sounds to me, Arnold, that you are basically saying the same thing as MM. Basically both of you believe that a person can go in and out of being in a saved position multiple times a day or hour. You commit a sin (known sin) and are lost. Repent, and you are saved again. Sin again, and lost again. Repent again, and saved again. And so forth. Am I misunderstanding either one of you on this point?
MM: Tom, I doubt truly born again believers commit known sins so easily, so frequently. But, yes, theoretically believers can, in the throes of temptation, take their eyes off Jesus (i.e., cease abiding in Jesus) and commit a known sin. While thus separated from Jesus, while in known sin, they are in a lost state. On this point, I agree with Arnold. “When one is separated from Jesus, there is no rebirth, no salvation, no life.” Do you agree?
Aarg! I wrote a response to this, but it didn’t get posted somehow.
EGW wrote that it is not the occasional good dead or occasional misdeed that’s important, but the trend of the life (my words; her idea). Moses is a good example of this. He lost his temper, but was not in a lost condition. His repentance was immediate and deep. If he had died at the moment of anger, he would not have been lost. His character hadn’t changed. He would still be happy in heaven.
However, one cherished sin is enough to make of no effect all the power of the Gospel. Tom, I'm sorry your post got lost. That can be very frustrating. Also, I agree with you that Moses would not have been lost had he died before he was able to repent. I believe God imputes repentance in cases where people would have repented had they not die immediately. Romans 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, 4:7 [Saying], Blessed [are] they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. 4:8 Blessed [is] the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
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Re: True Conversion Described
[Re: Mountain Man]
#88541
05/02/07 02:05 PM
05/02/07 02:05 PM
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Arnold, it seems to me that verse 6 explains verse 9. I'm referring to 1 John 3. That is, it explains why born again believers do not and cannot commit a known sin. Abiding in Jesus, not being born again, is what empowers them to not commit a known sin. Abiding in Jesus, not rebirth, is the origin and source of their ability to not commit a known sin. More importantly, of course, abiding in Jesus is what empowers them to be like Jesus, to mature in the fruits of the Spirit. What they don't do is important, but what they do do is more important.
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Re: True Conversion Described
[Re: Mountain Man]
#88542
05/02/07 02:09 PM
05/02/07 02:09 PM
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I am bumping this post for convenience. It contains aspects that have not been addressed yet. I look forward to pursuing them. A: People can and do stop being born again. Every time they knowingly choose to sin, they are forfeiting their rebirth.
MM: Must they be rebaptized every time they commit a known sin?
A: Yes, but not by water. Such must be baptized again into the likeness of Christ's death, that they may rise to walk in newness of life. The flesh that has been resurrected must be crucified again. I’m not following you. Jesus said people who are not born again must be born again of water and of the Spirit. If committing a known sin reverses or undoes rebirth, that is, if it means they are no longer born again, why wouldn’t Jesus’ instruction apply again, as if they were not born again? Also, your explanation of rebaptism seems to be the same as repentance. But aren’t they different? I thought repentance leads to, or prepares one for, baptism by water and by the Spirit. Am I missing something? A: “When one is separated from Jesus, there is no rebirth, no salvation, no life.”
MM: I’m not sure I agree they cease being born again. Yes, they cease bearing the fruits of being born again, of abiding in Jesus, but I’m not so sure a moment of weakness reverses or cancels rebirth.
A: 1Jn 3:6 - Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
Here's the first part of that in logician's terms: If you abide in Christ, you do not sin.
If you accept that (and I see no reason why you wouldn't), you must also accept its logically equivalent counterpart (called the Contrapositive): If you sin, you do not abide in Christ.
The way I understand the Bible's teaching, if one is not abiding in Christ, if one is "outside" Christ, there is no rebirth to speak of. Outside of Christ, one can only find eternal death.
But it is not the moment of weakness that cancels rebirth. It is the refusal to submit to God that cancels rebirth. And if that happens, that moment in time which could have been a testament of triumph over temptation, becomes a tale of tragedy. In short, the cancellation of rebirth causes the moment of weakness, not the other way around. Again, what you’re saying doesn’t make sense to me. Yes, I agree that born again believers do not and cannot commit a known sin while they are actively and aggressively choosing to consciously abide in Jesus. However, I have not found in the Bible or the SOP where they cease being born again if they take their eyes off Jesus and commit a known sin. The Scripture you quoted does not say they cease being born again. I hear John saying, People who commit known sins do so because they are not seeing Jesus, they are not knowing Him. “Whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.” In other words, when we take our eyes off Jesus, when we are not in an intimate relationship with Him – we are back in the mind of the old man, committing known sins. Do you see what I mean? A: So, though it is possible for one to be saved, then lost again, then saved again, it is virtually impossible to do it within a day, and certainly within an hour.
MM: Would truly born again believers wait more than an hour or a day to repent of a known sin? I suspect truly born again believers would repent immediately, not wait an hour or day. Do you know what I mean?
A: I think what you're talking about is ignorant sin. When a truly converted person finds out that something he has been doing is a sin, he immediately repents and forsakes it. There is no waiting because there is nothing to wait for. His repentance is instant, deep, and life-changing.
But a truly born again believer is led by the Holy Spirit. Therefore, he walks in the Spirit, not the flesh. Therefore, he does not need to repent of known sin because the Spirit never leads him into sin. Whoever is born of God does not commit sin. I agree with what you wrote about sins of ignorance and immediately repenting and experiencing a life change. God is good. However, in the case of born again believers taking their eyes off Jesus and committing a known sin, I am still unclear about what you posted. Perhaps it has do with your idea about them becoming unborn again? When believers become unborn again and commit a known sin, how long do they typically wait to repent and experience rebirth again? Is it virtually impossible for them to do it within an hour or a day? If so, why? I know when I take my eyes off Jesus and a commit a known sin, I do not hesitate to repent. Am I doing something wrong? A: By losing your salvation you commit sin. Sin is the effect, not the cause.
MM: Isn’t this backwards? Isn’t the main reason why we sin is because we take our eyes off Jesus, we stop consciously choosing to abide in Him? And aren’t we lost the instant we commit a known sin?
A: The reason we commit sin is because we take our eyes off Jesus. You and I agree.
I could have been more precise in my language. What I was calling "salvation" is not generally called that. Let's back up.
By grace are ye saved through faith. To be saved, we need grace and we receive it through faith.
The grace that brings salvation teaches us to live godly lives. That same grace enables us to deny fleshly lusts and be godly.
This grace is available to us only while we abide in Christ. Apart from Christ, there is no grace. When we stop abiding, we lose the grace, and consequently, both salvation from eternal death and salvation from the power of sin. At this point, we do have neither the power nor the disposition to resist temptation, which then leads to the commission of sin.
So, when does one become lost? Once our eyes are off Jesus, we are lost. Whatever sins we might commit after that is just evil icing on the cake. Yes, it is the grace of God that empowers us to recognize and resist sin, self, and Satan; it also empowers us to mature in the fruits of the Spirit, to nurture and develop the sinless traits of character inherent within the sinless seed or mind of the new man which God implants in us the moment we experience the miracle of rebirth. “Let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear.” (Heb 12:28) “Whatever sins we might commit after [taking our eyes off Jesus] is just evil icing on the cake.” Isn’t it also a sin to simply not abide in Jesus?
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Re: True Conversion Described
[Re: Mountain Man]
#88553
05/02/07 04:05 PM
05/02/07 04:05 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Tom, I'm sorry your post got lost. That can be very frustrating.
Also, I agree with you that Moses would not have been lost had he died before he was able to repent. I believe God imputes repentance in cases where people would have repented had they not die immediately.
Good! I'm glad we agree on this. Do you agree with the idea that what causes one to be lost is cherished sin? Actually, this is the first time I think I've thought of putting it just this way, but as I consider it, it seems to me to be accurate.
It seems to me that the fight God is fighting is to influence us to cherish righteousness rather than sin. One who cherishes sin can still do "occasional good deeds," as Ellen White puts it. Conversely, one who cherishing righteousness can fall into temptation. But the cherishing of righteousness continues in the heart, as long as the committed sin is not cherished.
So to put this in the abiding language, what causes one to move out of abiding in Jesus is to cherish sin, not simply to commit it. One could commit a sin of ignorance, which would have no conscious effect on the one committing it, or commit a known sin, without cherishing it. If one refuses to respond to the wooing of the Holy Spirit to repent, that's where I think the abiding in Jesus part stops.
So in Moses' case, he never stopped abiding in Jesus.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: True Conversion Described
[Re: Tom]
#88554
05/02/07 04:14 PM
05/02/07 04:14 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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John is talking about two different classes of people; those who love, and those who don’t.
That's true. But that's related to all the sinning/abiding stuff.
My point is that in relation to 1 John 3:6 and 1 John 3:9, I think many have tried to make elaborate schemes from a couple of verses John wrote in a way that was never intended to be taken the way people take it. He wasn't constructing a theological theorem. He was simply saying that people who are born of God love. Loving, practicing righteousness, keeping the commandments, Johns spoke of interchangeably. One who is born again, or abides in Jesus, cannot act in an unloving way, because one who is of God is characterized by love.
It's not John's intention to say that a child of God can commit no unloving act, because in 1 John 2, John tells us that if we sin, we have an advocate. So it is possible for a child of God to be unloving (we all know this by experience), but when this happens, and the Holy Spirit convicts us, we should respond by repenting of what we've done, and do all we can to set things right. This is what a child of God will do.
I think what I'm writing here is in harmony with John's point. I agree with what you wrote about the reflection that is needed, and think this was part of John's point. Actually John and James are very similar, it seems to me, in the points they make.
James says that simply claiming to have faith is not enough. A person can claim to have faith without really having it. It is not the claim of having faith that saved, but the exercising of actual, living faith. If one actually has faith, that faith will be shown by their actions.
James uses an example which is very similar to John's, which has to do with how one treats a person in need.
Jesus Christ taught the same thing when He spoke of how those on the right side of the question visited Him in prison, gave Him food and drink, and so forth.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: True Conversion Described
[Re: Mountain Man]
#88560
05/02/07 05:21 PM
05/02/07 05:21 PM
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Abiding in Jesus, not being born again, is ... The way I see it, abiding in Jesus and being born again are equivalent. It's like being covered by water and being wet are equivalent. You cannot have one without the other. To me, they are interchangeable. That's why I say that one born of God cannot sin, because one born of God is abiding in Jesus, and in Him is no sin or darkness at all.
By God's grace,
Arnold
1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
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Re: True Conversion Described
[Re: asygo]
#88565
05/02/07 05:58 PM
05/02/07 05:58 PM
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And if we have on the heavenly armor, we shall find that the assaults of the enemy will not have power over us. Angels of God will be round about us to protect us. I have the assurance of God that thus it will be. {YRP 239.3}
By God's grace,
Arnold
1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
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