I am an Adventist, and like most Adventists, I believe that the death of Christ took place in 31 AD, and His ministry within the Holiest began in 1844. But Christ is the I AM. Both His death and His priestly ministry transcend time.
Adventists hold that Jesus has only ministered for the saints who lived after 1844 within the Most Holy Place. I agree that His ministry within the Holiest first began on that date. But we have assumed that we are the only generations that can benefit from His Most Holy Place ministry. It’s something like the thinking of Christ’s day. Like the Jews, we want the ministry of the Messiah all to ourselves. But, again, if the death Christ transcends time, His ministry does too.

Here are some texts to support the idea that both the death, and ministry of Christ are transcendental.

“For it became him, for whom [are] all things, and by whom [are] all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified [are] all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren, Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.” Heb 2:10-12.

This quote from the Old Testament beautifully describes Christ’s close, priestly identification with the church. It precedes the cross. Another quote:

“He . . . said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee. As he saith also in another [place], Thou [art] a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.” Heb5:5-6

When did God say this to Christ? Probably long before the cross, at the fall of man. Christ was installed as priest from the very beginning.

I could quote many more, including texts that indicate His Most Holy Place ministry embraces all of human history, but there is a pressing question that is probably on some of your minds – Doesn’t this destroy the significance of 1844? Not at all. It’s effect is the opposite. It strengthens our beliefs. It elevates the ministry of Christ within the Holiest (which did begin in 1844) to its rightful place as the essence of His ministry for the saints of all ages. Just as the saints before the cross looked forward by faith to the sacrifice of the Messiah, the same saints looked by faith to the ministry of Messiah (Anointed One) within the Holiest to secure their complete redemption.

But, what about the open and shut doors of the sanctuary in the Bible and SOP?

The sanctuary has elements of corporate and individual worship blended together. For the corporate body, tests are brought to bear on it at different times and in different ways. When the corporate body fully rebels under testing, the doors of the sanctuary are closed against that group – the antediluvians, the Jews (as a nation only), and those who rejected the Millerite message are some examples. This does not mean that the doors were closed on faithful individuals as well. Noah, the early church, and the pioneers appropriated by faith the ministry of Christ. Christ truly ever lives to make intercession for us.

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PS.
I should add that I am a father of three with a full time job at work and a full time job at home - helping to raise my adolecent children. I promise to respond as I'm able, but there may be a few days to a week between posts.

Mark, you raise a good point. Thank you. Indeed, Jesus ever lives to make intercession for us. But apparently He did not begin to blot out names and/or sins until 1844. Until then they remained on the books. So, how could this aspect of His ministry start before 1844?

Good question Mike, and I only have time for a partial answer. I'll give it more thought, but for now, the main point is that the Apostles could participate in the Holiest Ministry by faith, knowing that whether God does it now or says He'll do it later, His promise is as good as if it has already occurred.

Ah yes, now I see what you mean. Excellent point. By faith they embraced the truth. As it is written in Hebrews:

11:13 - "These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of [them], and embraced [them]..."

11:39,40 - "And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect."

Faith transcends time and space and appropriates eternal truth as though it were already a fact. I guess that's one of the many awesome things about worshipping an all-powerful, almighty God. Which is why Jesus was able to say:

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life." John 5:24.

Eternal life is a reality the very moment we accept Jesus as our personal Saviour. We have "eternal life abiding" in us. 1 John 3:5. Thank you Lord!!

I look forward to the continuation of your thoughts. Thank you for this study.

[ December 11, 2001: Message edited by: Mike Lowe ]

Quote by Mark

When did God say this to Christ? Probably long before the cross, at the fall of man. Christ was installed as priest from the very beginning.

Mark

I noticed that you used the word "probably."

Then based on a "probably," you & Mike have been building your "doctrine of trascendence."

The book of Hebrews was written on or about 64 AD.

Now you tell us, when was the cross?

David, are you upset or something? The tone of your posts are sounding a bit confrontational, if not antagonistic. Is there something I can do to motivate you to be a little more kind and loving? I'm just not used to you coming across so harsh. That's not the David I'm familiar with, you know what I mean?

When did Jesus die on the cross? According to our limited human perspective of time and space Jesus died on Calvary in AD 31. But according to Rev 13:8 the Lamb of God was slain from the foundation of the world. I realize there are people who choose to interpret this passage to mean that Jesus made His decision back then to die for man, and not that He was slain at that time.

But that's certainly not what the text says. I'm not ready to apply my own private interpretation to this passage, at least not yet. At this point I'm more willing to search for ways to understand how this verse can be taken just as it reads. Who knows, maybe this scripture is one of the doors to new light? And I would hate to shut it and lose out!!

God is so much bigger than we can possibly know or comprehend. Nothing is impossible for Him.

Isaiah
55:8,9 - "For my thoughts [are] not your thoughts, neither [are] your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For [as] the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts."

God is omnipresent. Which not only encompassses space, but no doubt it also embraces time. Or how else could He predict the future with absolute perfect accuracy? God is the "high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity." Isa 57:15. We can no more understand how God can be everywhere at once than we can explain how He can occupy eternity. But our inability to comprehend it does not prove it to be untrue.

Isaiah 57:15 clearly says that God inhabits eternity. What else can this mean except that God occupies eternity? God dwells in eternity past and eternity future now. Obviously He is not confined by time and space the same way we are. But at the same time He is present with us now and forever.

These observations encourage me to believe that it is possible to read Rev 13:8 exactly the way it is written. And I do not feel like I'm guilty of speculating about it in way that is harmful to my salvation.

If God truly inhabits eternity, like it plainly says in Isa 57:15, then it's easy for me to believe that Jesus is the Lamb of God slain from the foundatin of the world. The fact that it didn't happen according to our calendar until AD 31 does not discourage me from believing that it has been a reality for God since the beginning of time. For "one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day." 2 Peter 3:8.

Doesn't this make sense to anyone else?

Mike

I'm not sure what specifically I have said that "sounds confrontational."

I am sorry if I made you feel that way.

As far as I know, all I am doing is questioning some things.

I am adding this edit Mike, after re-reading the posts I have made here. Your acusations of "harsh" and "confrontational" are not what I would call fair play. Why must this happen, just because you were questioned directly?

I will stay away from this line of study, since it seems to be a problem.

[ December 11, 2001: Message edited by: DavidTBattler ]

David, perhpas I was being a little over sensitive. I apologize for wondering if you were upset. Please continue sharing your thoughts and questions. I really do appreciate how your mind works and thinks. And it would be a terrible loss if you were to cease posting on this thread. So, can I persuade you to change your mind about not posting here any more? Please!!! And then maybe you can address the other things I said in my last post. Okay?

Mike, Like you’ve said, the omnipotence of God encompasses eternity – something we can’t fully comprehend because we are finite. But if we can bring that important concept into our understanding of 1844, it will broaden our view of things. One of the implications of it is that the Apostles and prophets had an identical experience to ours within the Holiest. Therefore, their testimony is completely applicable to our experience. We don’t have to filter their testimony, thinking that they experienced sanctification at an inferior level within the Holy Place, rather than within the Most Holy Place. It is amazing when you think of it that our church’s doctrine is so well founded on scriptures given our assumption that the prophets and Apostles could not appropriate the Holiest ministry of Christ.

David, Mike’s answered the question you put to me. But to clarify, I used the word “probably” because the phrase “from the foundation of the world” could refer to 1) the counsels of God when the plans were laid for the Earth’s and man’s creation, 2) the creation of the world itself, or 3) the fall of man. I said above that Christ was installed as Priest probably from the fall, but it’s more probable that “from the foundation” refers to the planning stage.

The passages that I quoted from Hebrews are themselves quotes from the OT. They are in the first post of the thread because they are from before the cross, and I cited them as authority for the transcendental priesthood of Christ. So I am advocating the view that Christ’s priesthood went into effect before His physical death because His death and His life transcend time. In addition to that concept, I am also advocating the view that the judgment of the living for individuals (not for the corporate body) has the same transcendental nature. The saints of all ages have been tried and vindicated by the eternal, transcendental judgment of Christ. This means that the judgment of the living has always been a present reality for the church. I’ll write more, but I’m out of time and I’d like your feedback.

David, I’m not offended at all. Please join in. I suggest we may want to look first at the evidence of when Christ was installed as priest in general, (whether in the Holy Place or Most Holy Place,) and go from there. But feel free, forum, to write whatever comments or questions you all feel need to be addressed. Mark

Mark, those are awesome thoughts you're posting. It really causes the mind to dig deep. Thank you.

Did I understand you to say that the OT prophets and the NT apostles experienced something akin to the investigative judgment of the MHP? If so, are you referring to the earthly service conducted once a year - the day of atonement?

Or are you suggesting that they experienced the investigative judgment that Jesus initiated in the MHP of the heavenly sanctuary beginning in 1844?

If so, I thought the investigative judgment of the living is yet future, and will not commence until sometime after the USA begins enforcing the MOB (since the 144,000 must first demonstrate their allegiance by refusing the MOB before their cases can be settled in favor of eternal life and the seal of God)?

Which suggests that even though SDA's have, by faith, followed Jesus into the MHP for the last 157 years no one has truly experienced the investigative process - since at this time it involves only the cases of the deceased.

As I understand it, if we are among the living when our cases are examined and a favorable destiny awarded, we will be numbered and sealed among the 144,000 and consequently we will not taste death before Jesus returns to translate us. Plus Jesus will blot out our record and memory of the specific sins we committed throughout our lifetime.

As yet I don't know of anyone since Adam who has had this experience while still alive here on earth? This would indicate that the MHP experience of the living is still a future thing for God's people. However, I do acknowledge that it is already an experience for God Himself, due to His ability to occupy eternity.

But what were you thinking?