Hi Mike

I just caught your post to me above now. I am happy to join in again.

Mark

Your explanation in an above post, re the three possibilities for "from the foundation of the world," are closer to what I was thinking about that aspect of the topic.

I have a couple of things I want to give some thought to before I post more - likely I will be back later tonight - but it could run into tomorrow...depends how much thinking I do...

Mike, re what will it be like for the 144,000 during the MOB crisis, I think it will be like all the other times during dark ages when the beast persecuted the saints. The main differences will be that 1) the latter rain will be available corporately to assist the saints in spreading the message under intense persection, and 2) the saints will have a stronger grasp of the truths of the sanctuary and the IJ.

I can't think of any other ways in which it will be different.

Mark

David, thank you rejoining this thread. I look forward to your post.

Mark, how about when God blots out their record and memory of specific sins? will that be any different? The following references seem to suggest that our memory of specific sins will be blotted out before probation closes and will last throughout eternity.

Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

3SG 134.2 Those who have delayed a preparation for the day of God cannot obtain it in the time of trouble, or at any future period. The righteous will not cease their earnest agonizing cries for deliverance. They cannot bring to mind any particular sins, but in their whole life they can see but little good. Their sins had gone beforehand to judgment, and pardon had been written. Their sins had been borne away into the land of forgetfulness, and they could not bring them to remembrance.

Mike,
A month or two ago Jean introduced the idea of sin being erased from our memories, and that’s an idea that is certainly worth considering.

Yesterday I was discussing the mechanics of sin and forgiveness with a friend. He made a distinction between sin being forgiven and sin being blotted out. He thought it was important when we talk about these things that we not say that a sin is forgiven in general, but that a sin is forgiven a person. The point he was making was that every sin will receive its punishment including sins that have been forgiven us. Forgiven sin is still on the books of record and it’s final punishment will attach either to the wicked or to satan, all of whom are consumed in the lake of fire along with their sins. In satan’s case, the sins of the saints and their corresponding punishment will rest on him.

In a sense, I think he was right. In Revelation, when the devil is thrown into the lake of fire, death and hades are thrown in with him. The power of death is forever broken at this point because sin is consumed along with the scapegoat. It is sin that keeps us under the dominion of death. Once sin is consumed the saints will sing, “Oh death, where is thy sting?” Death is swallowed up in victory.

So, let me ask, where are the sins of the saints kept between the time they are forgiven and the time they are consumed? We usually say they are on the books of record. We also sometimes say that they are either on the sanctuary (we ususally don't pinpoint which part) or on the priest. In order to pinpoint where the sin is between the time it is forgiven and the time it is placed on the scapegoat however, we need to look at what is cleansed.

So, let's start by looking at the books of record. Where in the sanctuary are the books of record? There is nothing in the sanctuary that immediately jumps out at us as symbolizing these. But from other scriptures we know they exist in heaven. So how do we look for them?

Well, sin is cleansed only by blood, so the records must be symbolized by one or more of the items that are cleansed by blood.

On the Day of Atonement blood was place in three areas – on and before the mercy seat, on the golden alter and before the veil. And in Ezekiel’s temple, the last items to be cleansed are the bronze altar and the inner court. Ez. 45:18-20. So we have at least five possibilities.

I’m not sure what all the symbolism of these five items is but I’ll be studying it over the holidays. One thing though that I think we can be sure of is that the removal of sin from the heavenly sanctuary will follow the same precise sequence that is depicted in the Torah and in Ezekiel's temple. If that is true, we should be able to come to a clearer understanding of when our memories will be corrected or purged. Whatever element of the sanctuary is symbolic of the living and their books of record, when the blood is applied to it, at that moment, the memory should be corrected.

So although the judgment is eternal, the saints have been glorified, the song of victory already echos down to us from the gates of heaven that stand ajar, every detail of the sanctuary is worthy of attention.

[ December 17, 2001: Message edited by: Mark Shipowick ]

Is it just me, or is there more than one thread on this, or similar topic matter? It seems I posted about this subject somewhere else...I will scour around and try to find it...that will be quicker than waiting for an answer here.

I'll be back!

I have also been noticing very similar, if not duplicate topics, on this and a few other things.

It would be a good idea to try and work on a subject under one topic rather than the same or very similar subject, however, I realize that may not be an easy task, therefore, I don't have a heavy concern over this unless it is obvious that they are in fact duplicate topics in which one topic may then need to be closed with a link to the other topic.

Mark, wouldn't the record and memory of specific sins be expunged the moment the high priest took them upon himself as each case is examined in the MHP during the IJ? And then wouldn't they exist in Satan during the millennium, and finally perish with him in the lake of fire?

Mike, Christ took our sins on himself from the foundation of the world I think. The elements of the sanctuary that are cleansed help to explain what is happening with the church corporately and individually. Maybe Daryl is right that we need more focus, but I'm willing to delve into the meaning of the five elements that are cleansed if that's what the rest of you want.

I'll be in northern Ontario for the next week so Merry Christmas forum, and if I can't log on before the new year, Happy New Year too. Mark

There is a quote in 7BC that states that God stands in all aspects of time and that time is open to Him as if He were in all time at the same time. When I find it I will post it on the board.

We also have the text in Hebrews 7:9-10 where Pauls says that Levi payed tithes to Melchizadek when he was still in the loins of Abraham. By faith we can participate in any phase of the plan of salvation at any time but in our physical time we can only go one step at a time.

So for me the sanctuary service has been available to all people since the plan was implemented. It appears that God has chosen to allow the plan of salvation to unfold in physical time to allow people, and angels, the time to see things and principles unfold in a variety of settings.

We also have the quote in Early writings that says that if we ignore the light of 1844 we will fall off the path so our physical sequencing of time is important to remember for the sake of unfolding prophecy.

Good study.

Thanks for your thoughts, Greg. Looking forward to your post, and the quote.