Also, I agree with you that Moses would not have been lost had he died before he was able to repent.

A silent witness guards every soul that lives, seeking to win and draw him to Christ. The angels never leave the tempted one a prey to the enemy who would destroy the souls of men if permitted to do so. As long as there is hope, until they resist the Holy Spirit to their eternal ruin, men are guarded by heavenly intelligences. {OHC 23.2}

If they yield to the enemy, and make no effort to resist him, then the angels of God can do but little more than hold in check the host of Satan, that they shall not destroy, until further light be given to those in peril, to move them to arouse and look to heaven for help. {1T 345.2}

Satan has sought to afflict and ruin you, and even to take your life; but your Saviour has shielded you again and again, lest you should be cut down when your heart was filled with a satanic frenzy, your tongue uttering words of bitterness and unbelief against the Bible and against the truth you once advocated. {5T 338.1}

No, no; years of probation were granted them, that they might form characters for heaven; but they have never trained the mind to love purity; they have never learned the language of heaven, and now it is too late. A life of rebellion against God has unfitted them for heaven. Its purity, holiness, and peace would be torture to them; the glory of God would be a consuming fire. They would long to flee from that holy place. They would welcome destruction, that they might be hidden from the face of Him who died to redeem them. The destiny of the wicked is fixed by their own choice. Their exclusion from heaven is voluntary with themselves, and just and merciful on the part of God. (GC 542, 543)

Plus, if there is still hope for a sinner to repent, God would not allow him to die.

Also, I agree with you that Moses would not have been lost had he died before he was able to repent. I believe God imputes repentance in cases where people would have repented had they not died immediately.

Good! I'm glad we agree on this. Do you agree with the idea that what causes one to be lost is cherished sin? Actually, this is the first time I think I've thought of putting it just this way, but as I consider it, it seems to me to be accurate.

It seems to me that the fight God is fighting is to influence us to cherish righteousness rather than sin. One who cherishes sin can still do "occasional good deeds," as Ellen White puts it. Conversely, one who cherishing righteousness can fall into temptation. But the cherishing of righteousness continues in the heart, as long as the committed sin is not cherished.

So to put this in the abiding language, what causes one to move out of abiding in Jesus is to cherish sin, not simply to commit it. One could commit a sin of ignorance, which would have no conscious effect on the one committing it, or commit a known sin, without cherishing it. If one refuses to respond to the wooing of the Holy Spirit to repent, that's where I think the abiding in Jesus part stops. So in Moses' case, he never stopped abiding in Jesus.

MM: Abiding in Jesus, not being born again, is what empowers them to not commit a known sin. Abiding in Jesus, not rebirth, is the origin and source of their ability to not commit a known sin. More importantly, of course, abiding in Jesus is what empowers them to be like Jesus, to mature in the fruits of the Spirit. What they don't do is important, but what they do do is more important.

A: The way I see it, abiding in Jesus and being born again are equivalent. It's like being covered by water and being wet are equivalent. You cannot have one without the other. To me, they are interchangeable.

That's why I say that one born of God cannot sin, because one born of God is abiding in Jesus, and in Him is no sin or darkness at all.

Because mankind was originally made in the image and likeness of God, we are born with both a conscious and instinctive knowledge of what is morally right and wrong. “God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.” (Romans 12:2) For example, we know from birth that it is morally wrong to lie, cheat, steal, murder, et cetera. Nobody has to tell us such things are wrong. We just know it naturally, instinctively. That’s how God programmed us from birth.

As through Christ every human being has life, so also through Him every soul receives some ray of divine light. Not only intellectual but spiritual power, a perception of right, a desire for goodness, exists in every heart. (RC 106)

A cursory study of feral people, children who were raised by animals, makes it obvious that we are born with an instinctive knowledge of what is morally right and wrong. Without ever having been told, feral children know it is wrong to lie, cheat, steal, and murder. In fact, they feel guilty when they violate any one of the last six commandments. The only way this is possible is if they were born with a conscious and instinctive knowledge of what is morally right and wrong.

Although we are born with a conscious and instinctive knowledge of what is morally right and wrong as defined by the last six commandments we are not, however, born with a mental or biblical knowledge of what is morally right and wrong as defined by the first four commandments. For example, we do not know from birth that is morally wrong to worship false gods, to make idols, to take the Lord’s name in vain, or to violate the Sabbath day. Nor are we born with an understanding of diet and dress reform.

Until we learn about such things through Bible study and prayer, we unwittingly disobey them, that is, we sin ignorantly. God does not, of course, hold us responsible until we are convicted of the truth. Consequently, it is possible for someone to experience “rebirth” before they understand the first four commandments. This applies to people, like indigenous natives, who have never heard of Jesus but who live in harmony with what they know naturally from birth. They are morally but not mentally converted.

For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: which show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another. (Romans 2:13-16)

Those whom Christ commends in the judgment may have known little of theology, but they have cherished His principles. Through the influence of the divine Spirit they have been a blessing to those about them. Even among the heathen are those who have cherished the spirit of kindness; before the words of life had fallen upon their ears, they have befriended the missionaries, even ministering to them at the peril of their own lives. Among the heathen are those who worship God ignorantly, those to whom the light is never brought by human instrumentality, yet they will not perish. Though ignorant of the written law of God, they have heard His voice speaking to them in nature, and have done the things that the law required. Their works are evidence that the Holy Spirit has touched their hearts, and they are recognized as the children of God. (DA 638)

We can also apply the principle of “morally but not mentally converted” to Christians who do not understand the truth about Sabbath keeping or diet and dress reform or any other doctrine which requires Bible study and prayer. In other words, a person can experience rebirth before they complete the process of converting to obeying and observing everything Jesus commanded.

“His servants ye are to whom ye obey” (Rom. 6:16). If we indulge anger, lust, covetousness, hatred, selfishness, or any other sin, we become servants of sin. “No man can serve two masters” (Matt. 6:24). If we serve sin, we cannot serve Christ. The Christian will feel the promptings of sin, for the flesh lusteth against the Spirit; but the Spirit striveth against the flesh, keeping up a constant warfare. Here is where Christ’s help is needed. Human weakness becomes united to divine strength, and faith exclaims, “Thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ” (1 Cor. 15:57)! (SL 92, 93)

He who has determined to enter the spiritual kingdom will find that all the powers and passions of unregenerate nature, backed by the forces of the kingdom of darkness, are arrayed against him. Each day he must renew his consecration, each day do battle with evil. Old habits, hereditary tendencies to wrong, will strive for the mastery, and against these he is to be ever on guard, striving in Christ’s strength for victory. (AA 476)

Every day hereditary tendencies to wrong will strive for the mastery. Every day you are to war against your objectionable traits of character, until there are left in you none of those things which need to be separated from you. Then you will think candidly and wisely how to take yourself to the Lord. You will foresee the evils which will come unless you change by avoiding the cause which produces the effect. (6MR 84)

The human agent is to cooperate with God, and keep under those passions which should be in subjection. To do this he must be unwearied in his prayers to God, ever obtaining grace to control his spirit, temper, and actions. Through the imparted grace of Christ, he may be enabled to overcome. To be an overcomer means more than many suppose it means. (1SM 380, 381)

He who determines to enter the spiritual kingdom will find that all the powers and passions of an unregenerate nature, backed by the forces of the kingdom of darkness, are arrayed against him. Selfishness and pride will make a stand against anything that would show them to be sinful. We cannot, of ourselves, conquer the evil desires and habits that strive for the mastery. We cannot overcome the mighty foe who holds us in his thrall. God alone can give us the victory. He desires us to have the mastery over ourselves, our own will and ways. But He cannot work in us without our consent and co-operation. The divine Spirit works through the faculties and powers given to man. Our energies are required to co-operate with God. (MB 142)

[color:blue]I don’t see any sense in this. If a person was going to repent, then why would his dying cause him to be lost? This is sounding like Catholic theology, where the priest has to come in and usher some last rites really quick before the person dies to make sure they get into purgatory, or some such.

As long as there is hope, until they resist the Holy Spirit to their eternal ruin, men are guarded by heavenly intelligences. {OHC 23.2}

Moses revealed great weakness before the people. He showed a marked lack of self-control, a spirit similar to that possessed by the murmurers. He should have been an example of forbearance and patience before that multitude, who were ready to excuse their failures, disaffections, and unreasonable murmurings, on account of this exhibition of wrong on his part. The greatest sin consisted in assuming to take the place of God. The position of honor that Moses had heretofore occupied did not lessen his guilt, but greatly magnified it. Here was a man hitherto blameless, now fallen. Many in a similar position would reason that their sin would be overlooked because of their long life of unwavering fidelity. But no; it was a more serious matter for a man who had been honored of God to show weakness of character in the exhibition of passion than if he had occupied a less responsible position. Moses was a representative of Christ, but how sadly was the figure marred! Moses had sinned, and his past fidelity could not atone for the present sin. . . . Moses and Aaron must die without entering Canaan, subjected to the same punishment that fell upon those in a more lowly position. They bowed in submission, though with anguish of heart that was inexpressible; but their love for and confidence in God was unshaken. . . . But few realize the sinfulness of sin. . . . The cases of Moses and Aaron . . . show that it is not a safe thing to sin in word or thought or deed. {CC 109.3}

I guess see things differently. I believe a person must experience the miracle of rebirth in order to begin abiding in Jesus, to begin partaking of the divine nature, to begin walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man, to begin maturing in the fruits of the Spirit.

That's why I believe a person doesn't instantly stop being born again when they cease to consciously choose to abide in Jesus, especially as it relates to committing a known sin unintentionally, spontaneously. However, as it relates to intentional, premediated sinning I suspect they have stopped being born again. They certainly have stopped abiding in Jesus.

What do you think about these distinctions?